Brian Gray Sues the Industry Summit

SteelBrad said:

It could be worse. You could be talking to a David Wright recording.

Click to expand...

It'd be more likable.

Super Mario said:

Well for starters, all of the black eyes he has given to the hobby through his terrible business practices.

Click to expand...

Do you have specific practices you think are particularly terrible?

phillyfan0417 said:

Do you have specific practices you think are particularly terrible?

Click to expand...

Inserting other cards companies in his own.

Super Mario said:

Inserting other cards companies in his own.

Click to expand...

Ok, what about Pastime, Heroes of Sport, Superbox and the list goes on and on

Super Mario said:

Inserting other cards companies in his own.

Click to expand...

This has always bothered me as well. I don't always agree with everything you say, but I do agree with your comments reguarding Leaf for the most part.

I'm curious who "the man" is. Who organizes the summit? Outside of that it's probably and issue of Leaf being the annoying little kid from down the block and their sick of dealing with his childishness.

Mahoody said:

Really Mike ???

If you love this man and what he represents in this industry - Why don't you carry his products in your store to sell ??

Oh that's right - because you have no customers that are willing to throw big money on his crap shoot products.....

I'm not talking about those blaster boxes or the holiday packs - and you're the only one to buy a case of draft ( if the price is right ) so that you could bust yourself.

Where's the best of baseball, football hockey leaf golf trinity masterworks game used jersey and pop century ????



Enough is Enough ....stop it already You talk as though he walks on water.... we get it - enough already

Click to expand...

Seriously Chris? You know why I don't carry those products, they either are waaaaaaay too pricey or I have absolutely zero call for it. C'mon you know that.

I've said (complained) I can't carry most leaf products because most their stuff is one pack products with a high price tag.

I've mentioned that on here several times and even in the video above at the conference.

The leaf products I have carried have all sold great (except maybe 1 or 2) and from all the boxes I've opened in my life, 2012 valiant and draft (THREE cases worth) is the most profitable product ever for me!......... And I sold all the Puig redemptions before he blew up and still have about 100 autos left!

Has nothing to do with "his products", it's all about the price as i don't carry five star or triple threads (more than a couple).

BBCgalaxee said:

Seriously Chris? You know why I don't carry those products, they either are waaaaaaay too pricey or I have absolutely zero call for it. C'mon you know that.

I've said (complained) I can't carry most leaf products because most their stuff is one pack products with a high price tag.

I've mentioned that on here several times and even in the video above at the conference.

The leaf products I have carried have all sold great (except maybe 1 or 2) and from all the boxes I've opened in my life, 2012 valiant and draft (THREE cases worth) is the most profitable product ever for me!......... And I sold all the Puig redemptions before he blew up and still have about 100 autos left!

Has nothing to do with "his products", it's all about the price as i don't carry five star or triple threads (more than a couple).

Click to expand...

I have to ask... If this is true, why wouldn't your customers give his products a try? You are proof to them that there are profits here and if they are pricey, no more so than TTT or 5 Star... If you say no to expensive Topps products and carry pricey Leaf instead and let your customers know you are doing it because it provides better value to them and better resale prices, then they should be all for it. This is how change gets started. If you KNOW there is a better product you owe it to your customer to carry it. Don't sell them the stuff that offers them little return value if there is something better.

Here's the deal... I don't think anyone has done the proper study of product lines to compare the better ROI of a product year in and year out. If I KNEW I could consistently make money off of Leaf, I'd buy it from a flipper perspective.

Super Mario said:

Inserting other cards companies in his own.

Click to expand...

So repackage products in general bother you and everyone else who does these also engages in terrible practices? Repacks are a lottery ticket and everyone who buys in knows that. I suppose grab bags sold at shows are also a terrible practice and we should spew venom at those sellers as well?

So was the big announcement at this year's summit going to be colored etch printed directly on a replica jersey that was touched by a player at a signing?

BBCgalaxee said:

Seriously Chris? You know why I don't carry those products, they either are waaaaaaay too pricey or I have absolutely zero call for it. C'mon you know that.

I've said (complained) I can't carry most leaf products because most their stuff is one pack products with a high price tag.

I've mentioned that on here several times and even in the video above at the conference.

The leaf products I have carried have all sold great (except maybe 1 or 2) and from all the boxes I've opened in my life, 2012 valiant and draft (THREE cases worth) is the most profitable product ever for me!......... And I sold all the Puig redemptions before he blew up and still have about 100 autos left!

Has nothing to do with "his products", it's all about the price as i don't carry five star or triple threads (more than a couple).

Click to expand...

I have to ask... If this is true, why wouldn't your customers give his products a try? You are proof to them that there are profits here and if they are pricey, no more so than TTT or 5 Star... If you say no to expensive Topps products and carry pricey Leaf instead and let your customers know you are doing it because it provides better value to them and better resale prices, then they should be all for it.

If you KNOW there is a better product you owe it to your customer to carry it. Don't sell them the stuff that offers them little return value if there is something better.

Now I'm just playing devils advocate based on what you wrote, as you sound like you support the idea of Leaf products, but won't use the above logic to try to change the thinking of your customer base. I think I have seen enough Leaf products to draw my own conclusion that they are not really popular enough with collectors to break and expect a decent return and I don't buy them because of that. Here's the deal... I don't think anyone has done the proper study of product lines to compare the better ROI of a product year in and year out. If I KNEW I could consistently make money off of Leaf, I'd buy it from a flipper perspective. But I don't know this and based on what I've seen and experienced, I wouldn't buy Leaf.

Super Mario said:

He BEGS for it.

He's an instigator.

Click to expand...

Sent from my VS870 4G using Freedom Card Board mobile app

Super Mario said:

Or they're just sick of him being a massive douce, and his terrible business practices, such as adding THEIR cards into HIS proucts and passing them off as his own?!?!

There comes a point where people just say "screw this guy" and are done with him.

I'm honestly surprised there are so many apologists around here for this guy after all the crap he has pulled. I believe the only reason there are, is because he is active here posting.

Let's be honest, he's done more bad for the card industry than good.

Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more.

Leaf is one of the few things that is driving the industry forward. No, not every idea he's had has been a winner. If things are going to get better there has to be competition. Leaf as gone from nothing to being considered competition. This is coming from someone who has leaf products on his shelf side by side with topps and Panini products. Sure I sell more topps than anything. Leaf is a clear third without having any licensing costs. We cannot allow leagues to control this hobby.

Super Mario said:

Well for starters, all of the black eyes he has given to the hobby through his terrible business practices.

Click to expand...

I am not a Leaf apologist and probably will never be one for any business but I have to say.......Super Mario, prove your point. It is easy to throw accusations out there but to prove your point with solid facts are needed her before tossing out blanket statements.

I have known Brian...or should I say I have done business with his business long before he was a the president and owner of a card company. Brians prvious business practices as a distributor may have pissed some other distributors off because of his great prices but he always did right by me as a card shop owner. His business, at that time was exceptional and will never get complaints from me.

So lets hear your facts to back up your blowhard statements!

Sometimes I read the Leaf and Brian Gray hate and just think "Will you just shut the F up already?"

I mean, really, what is the point of getting so worked up about a card manufacturer who isn't hurting their customers likes Topps does.

You can dislike Leaf products all you want, but to act like they are "hurting" the hobby is just F-ing STUPID. LITERALLY stupid and completely out of touch with reality. Topps is RIPPING PEOPLE OFF with their redemption process, and you have the nerve to say Leaf is "hurting the hobby" because they release buy-back products? Anyone who believes this is a fool.

bcubs said:

I suppose grab bags sold at shows are also a terrible practice and we should spew venom at those sellers as well?

Click to expand...

Actually when I got into the hobby 25 years ago there was a lot of venom spewed at grab bag sellers. Lots of card shows banned them.

sportscardtheory said:

I mean, really, what is the point of getting so worked up about a card manufacturer who isn't hurting their customers likes Topps does.

You can dislike Leaf products all you want, but to act like they are "hurting" the hobby is just F-ing STUPID. LITERALLY stupid and completely out of touch with reality. Topps is RIPPING PEOPLE OFF with their redemption process, and you have the nerve to say Leaf is "hurting the hobby" because they release buy-back products? Anyone who believes this is a fool.

Click to expand...

I pretty much agree with this.

I'm just a tiny fish in today's cardboard world. I barely buy unopened anymore and to be honest don't really buy much secondary modern product, either. However, I read this board a lot and observe a little here and there. My observations are this: Leaf has been a good shot in the arm of a stagnant hobby, and Topps sh*ts the bed every chance they get. Their redemption program is despicable and their attention to detail is appalling. I'm surprised to hear Sam (and others) have such a problem with Leaf's alleged terrible practices but not hold Topps to the same standards. Topps is ripping people off, and they will continue to do so until someone, or many someones, come through with a business model that forces them (and the entities that give them license) to change their ways. I could care less if Leaf is unlicensed, or stamps a bunch of '80s & '90s commons, or whatever else it is that gets people so up in arms. At least they're doing something to try to set themselves apart.

The day after the summit, business will go on as usual, Brian and Leaf will still make quality products that people buy, and the sun will still rise.

Great speech, Brian! All the haters can "suck it". lol

Screw them for not wanting you back. People can't handle those who speak the truth. It's because you were the smartest one in the room and they feel threatened.

It's awful hard to put a black eye on an industry that has had upper deck involved. I'm not talking about products because most of them are just fine. I'm talking about things like reprinting Griffeys like our government prints up money.