How much do you think is a fair price on what to expect for this card? 1/1........

RStadlerASU22 said:

Rob -

Not calling anyone thieves , so that accusation falls to another member , not me. And also stated I do the same things. I am just saying there isn't a valid reason to say eBay wasn't cut out of the scenario in which they should of been paid. Totally different than saying you or anyone is wrong in doing it, but you can't give any justifiable reason (if you had to explain to eBay) why you felt it was ok. That's where I am agreeing with DilferRules. I am 100% ok with people doing it , including myself , I just am stating there isn't a valid reason you can actually give as to why eBay shouldn't be compensated. Not stating we are going to compensate eBay. Different things... Again , I have 0 negativity against anyone doing it , but there is no justifiable reason you could state eBay shouldn't have been paid if it was their service who put the transaction together , that's it.

Ryan

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So if you yank the card, they don't keep the listing fees?

In all honesty, it's a loophole in the system much like shill bids and the like. If they really wanted to, they could enforce it where you can't pull an item down until it's run its course(how many ever days you put it up for) unless the bin is hit or you accept a best offer or the auction ends. Then your obligation with eBay would then be complete. They keep the listing fees, you are now free to move your card however you see fit.

If you want to say you pay eBay due to the exposure they bring for your card, I'd counter that because you don't pay a fee suggesting that. You pay to list, you pay FVF. There is no fee for exposure.

predatorkj said:

So if you yank the card, they don't keep the listing fees?

In all honesty, it's a loophole in the system much like shill bids and the like. If they really wanted to, they could enforce it where you can't pull an item down until it's run its course(how many ever days you put it up for) unless the bin is hit or you accept a best offer or the auction ends. Then your obligation with eBay would then be complete. They keep the listing fees, you are now free to move your card however you see fit.

If you want to say you pay eBay due to the exposure they bring for your card, I'd counter that because you don't pay a fee suggesting that. You pay to list, you pay FVF. There is no fee for exposure.

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We're going in a direction that is over what I was I was implying. But in your situation there was a final sales price that wouldn't have occurred wo eBay. That's what I'm stating. Again for the 3rd or 4th time. I am ok with doing this. However the only truthful reason is to save on fees. Using things like "I paid them $100 last month in fees, or they take 10% + 3% PP aren't valid reasons. You know all of that going in , or those $100 in fees only occurred because of eBays platform getting you sales. If you don't think their fees are what they are because of exposure, then we disagree. I haven't looked in a while, but there was at some point a fee for ending a listing early, but I am not sure if that is still in place. So to sum it up , I am 100% ok with it happening , I can't give a valid reason other than saying I didn't want to pay the fees for doing so.

Ryan

predatorkj said:

Theoretically, the only thing you end up really sticking with eBay for is the limited protection they offer. It's a lot easier to get a refund through them if a deal goes sour. In the end, you don't sign a contract with them and you do what's best for you. You can't really blame anyone. It's no different than these local sellers at shows telling me that if I'm interested, they have a lot more of what I'm looking for for my sets back at their shop or home. Besides, if you pull an auction early, don't they keep the listing fees?

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You don't technically sign a contract but when you list an item or use ebay you are agreeing to go by their terms of service, which do not allow ending an auction early to sell it off ebay: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html

Saying "Hey I've got some more stuff you might like" is not the same situation at all. Those items were not listed on ebay and you did not find those specific items on ebay. Just because you establish a relationship with a seller on ebay doesn't give them the rights to any future off-ebay sales, that's going a bit far. If you read the link above you'll notice it doesn't mention anything like that, just ending a listing early for somebody who found that item on ebay.

mrdallas said:

Ryan, serious question then. How would you propose in this situation eBay gets paid? A donation? I am not stealing any service. I am utilizing a service that is available to me. I dont complain about the fees that I pay when i do sell on eBay. Just sometimes i am not willing to take less for a card than say 150 after fees and a buyer isnt willing to pay more tham say 155. The Only way to meet on this is off eBay. To each his own I say but to have people call others theives for doing it is hypocrytical IMO and that is where it rubs me the right way.

Rob

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Ebay gets paid in that situation by following their rules and just having the person buy the item on ebay. They found it on ebay and contacted you through ebay, that's two instances right there of you using their service to sell the card. In fact those are really the only services they provide for seller in a BIN/BO listing...a platform to make your card easily visible to a huge amount of buyers, and an easy way for buyers to contact you. Your example is just more justifications, "It's okay if I'm really close and the only way to close a deal and get the amount of money I want is to go off ebay." And I don't know why saying that I feel like doing this is stealing from ebay is hypocritical. ebay provides a service and is paid through listing and final value fees, you used their service and ripped them off for the final value fees.

predatorkj said:

In all honesty, it's a loophole in the system much like shill bids and the like. If they really wanted to, they could enforce it where you can't pull an item down until it's run its course(how many ever days you put it up for) unless the bin is hit or you accept a best offer or the auction ends. Then your obligation with eBay would then be complete. They keep the listing fees, you are now free to move your card however you see fit.

If you want to say you pay eBay due to the exposure they bring for your card, I'd counter that because you don't pay a fee suggesting that. You pay to list, you pay FVF. There is no fee for exposure.

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Firstly, comparing the loophole to shill bidding is not helping your case. Second, the fee to list and FVF are for the services ebay provides, the most important being exposure of your item. What on earth else would the fee be for? The miniscule bandwidth it takes to show the page with your card on it to a hundred people? That's like saying McDonald's doesn't pay NBC to show their TV ad to millions of people, they just pay them to air it during a TV show.

Wow of course ebay is going to say it's illegal to sell off ebay as they want to make as much money as possible but in all honesty if a buyer has bought from me 10 times and he has trust in me and made me an offer I wouldn't accept on ebay but would off ebay one way or another it would stay listed on ebay and they would not receive any money for the item. I can also say this none of the money I make off ebay or paypal sales goes into my bank account as I feed the money right back into ebay or paypal sales. I am done with this debate as neither side will budge in their beliefs and I will continue to do what I feel will be best for me and my collection and that means buying cards on ebay and off ebay using paypal. You can call it what you want but I am selling a item I own looking to make money for something else I want to buy. Now please let this go back to what the topic was for a 1/1 Mattingly Auto. So congrats on the purchase and nice pickup and if people feel that strongly on how right or wrong it is to sell off ebay make a topic of its own and not trash someone's topic for how he did or didn't buy a item off ebay that was listed on ebay.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Freedom Card Board mobile app

Dilferules said:

You don't technically sign a contract but when you list an item or use ebay you are agreeing to go by their terms of service, which do not allow ending an auction early to sell it off ebay: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html

Saying "Hey I've got some more stuff you might like" is not the same situation at all. Those items were not listed on ebay and you did not find those specific items on ebay. Just because you establish a relationship with a seller on ebay doesn't give them the rights to any future off-ebay sales, that's going a bit far. If you read the link above you'll notice it doesn't mention anything like that, just ending a listing early for somebody who found that item on ebay.



Ebay gets paid in that situation by following their rules and just having the person buy the item on ebay. They found it on ebay and contacted you through ebay, that's two instances right there of you using their service to sell the card. In fact those are really the only services they provide for seller in a BIN/BO listing...a platform to make your card easily visible to a huge amount of buyers, and an easy way for buyers to contact you. Your example is just more justifications, "It's okay if I'm really close and the only way to close a deal and get the amount of money I want is to go off ebay." And I don't know why saying that I feel like doing this is stealing from ebay is hypocritical. ebay provides a service and is paid through listing and final value fees, you used their service and ripped them off for the final value fees.



Firstly, comparing the loophole to shill bidding is not helping your case. Second, the fee to list and FVF are for the services ebay provides, the most important being exposure of your item. What on earth else would the fee be for? The miniscule bandwidth it takes to show the page with your card on it to a hundred people? That's like saying McDonald's doesn't pay NBC to show their TV ad to millions of people, they just pay them to air it during a TV show.

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I disagree with you here and that is your opinion… If I let the card sit on eBay for 5 years and never sold the card they wouldn't get my "fees" anyway. so I did not rip them off at all….. Explain how I did??? Or Tell me, how should I pay them? To be clear, there isn't a way unless I donated money to them.

mrdallas said:

I disagree with you here and that is your opinion… If I let the card sit on eBay for 5 years and never sold the card they wouldn't get my "fees" anyway. so I did not rip them off at all….. Explain how I did??? Or Tell me, how should I pay them? To be clear, there isn't a way unless I donated money to them.

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In your example the buyer found the card on ebay and messaged you through ebay. To pay ebay, they would buy the item through ebay and ebay would be paid with FVF. You ripped off ebay by using their service to find a buyer for your card (which is the whole point of their service to the seller) then selling it off ebay so that ebay does not get their final value fees. If you can't connect with a buyer on a price then it works the same way it does at a card show or out on the street when you can't connect on a price...you get no money and the buyer gets no card. If you feel it's okay to rip off ebay so you can make a sale, then you are correct we are in disagreement and have different opinions.

I am going to make a topic to get off this post. We can debate it there.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Freedom Card Board mobile app

Dilferules said:

As much as it greatly pains me to agree with David Anthony on something, I'm not going to automatically side with a respected board member against a moron troll if that moron troll is right. if ebay provides the service of connecting a buyer and seller then they deserve their cut. The argument that their fees are exorbitant is moot because the seller knows what the fees are when they list the item.

If a seller does not like how ebay treats sellers or how much they charge, then they can choose to try to sell it elsewhere...how is using their services then cutting them out of the transaction moral in any way? That's like saying you know shoplifting is wrong, and you wouldn't shoplift from a family-owned business that is scraping by, but you would shoplift from Wal-Mart because they have tons of money and won't even notice it. Make all the excuses you want, it's still stealing and it's wrong.

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No it's not.

Dilferules said:

In your example the buyer found the card on ebay and messaged you through ebay. To pay ebay, they would buy the item through ebay and ebay would be paid with FVF. You ripped off ebay by using their service to find a buyer for your card (which is the whole point of their service to the seller) then selling it off ebay so that ebay does not get their final value fees. If you can't connect with a buyer on a price then it works the same way it does at a card show or out on the street when you can't connect on a price...you get no money and the buyer gets no card. If you feel it's okay to rip off ebay so you can make a sale, then you are correct we are in disagreement and have different opinions.

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Wow. The buyer and I would never agree on the price I would have to charge on eBay so again you are wrong here, there would be NO SALE (thus no fees). The buyer knew i was a member on the forums and so we connected over here and found another medium to work out a deal. Not sure why you find this so hard to understand but no need to comment as apparently you are adamant about your opinion which is fine. Saying I am ripping them off is a ridiculous and laughable. Make sure that you NEVER do it, and if you do please make sure to fess up to the community here and comment that you have lost your morality and joined the dark side. LOL

I will also add that under your rules, once an item is listed on eBay then a sale must be done through eBay which is ridiculous!!

sportscardtheory said:

No it's not.

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Well, I appreciate your brevity.

mrdallas said:

Wow. The buyer and I would never agree on the price I would have to charge on eBay so again you are wrong here, there would be NO SALE (thus no fees). The buyer knew i was a member on the forums and so we connected over here and found another medium to work out a deal. Not sure why you find this so hard to understand but no need to comment as apparently you are adamant about your opinion which is fine. Saying I am ripping them off is a ridiculous and laughable. Make sure that you NEVER do it, and if you do please make sure to fess up to the community here and comment that you have lost your morality and joined the dark side. LOL

I will also add that under your rules, once an item is listed on eBay then a sale must be done through eBay which is ridiculous!!

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Maybe somebody else would have ended up buying it and ebay would have been paid, it's not a certainty that it never would have sold. The "well they wouldn't have gotten any money anyway so it's okay" argument is similar to what's used to justify pirating movies or music, and the court would certainly see that as stealing.

Your scenario is changing, though. At first you gave an example of a buyer finding the item on ebay then messaging you through ebay to negotiate, and his best price only worked for you if you didn't have to pay ebay FVF. Above you make it seem like they already knew you from over here and happened to see something you were selling on ebay, then just contacted you through this board to negotiate and you settled on a price. That would be a real gray area and it's tough to say...they only saw the card because of ebay so they should get their cut...hey I don't have to have the answers for every single situation to have an opinion. It'd be against ebay rules though since it's "cancelling a listing to sell to a buyer who found the item on ebay".

Personally I never offer to buy something off ebay and I rarely sell but when I do I do not entertain off-ebay offers. Honestlly I'm just trying to make the point that not paying a company for service they provided is a form of stealing, and I'd have less of a problem with somebody admitting it and saying they don't care because they are going to make a sale however they can than with somebody who for some reason can't see that it's wrong. I mean really if you owned ebay you wouldn't think it was stealing for somebody to use your service then cut you out of the FVF?

My argument is not at all that any item must be sold on ebay once it's listed. It just must be sold on ebay if that's where the buyer finds it, because ebay's services were used to make it happen. If you list an item on ebay then make a sale thread here and sell it through the sales thread, not even ebay would think they should get money for that. They would not have anything at all to do with the sale.

Dilferules said:

Well, I appreciate your brevity.



Maybe somebody else would have ended up buying it and ebay would have been paid, it's not a certainty that it never would have sold. The "well they wouldn't have gotten any money anyway so it's okay" argument is similar to what's used to justify pirating movies or music, and the court would certainly see that as stealing.

Your scenario is changing, though. At first you gave an example of a buyer finding the item on ebay then messaging you through ebay to negotiate, and his best price only worked for you if you didn't have to pay ebay FVF. Above you make it seem like they already knew you from over here and happened to see something you were selling on ebay, then just contacted you through this board to negotiate and you settled on a price. That would be a real gray area and it's tough to say...they only saw the card because of ebay so they should get their cut...hey I don't have to have the answers for every single situation to have an opinion. It'd be against ebay rules though since it's "cancelling a listing to sell to a buyer who found the item on ebay".

Personally I never offer to buy something off ebay and I rarely sell but when I do I do not entertain off-ebay offers. Honestlly I'm just trying to make the point that not paying a company for service they provided is a form of stealing, and I'd have less of a problem with somebody admitting it and saying they don't care because they are going to make a sale however they can than with somebody who for some reason can't see that it's wrong. I mean really if you owned ebay you wouldn't think it was stealing for somebody to use your service then cut you out of the FVF?

My argument is not at all that any item must be sold on ebay once it's listed. It just must be sold on ebay if that's where the buyer finds it, because ebay's services were used to make it happen. If you list an item on ebay then make a sale thread here and sell it through the sales thread, not even ebay would think they should get money for that. They would not have anything at all to do with the sale.

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I never said you had to have answers to have an opinion. But you are quick to call out people for "stealing" which i think is a bold statement.
Under your pretense I am assuming then it would be OK if the listing ended without being sold, a buyer reaches out to see if the item is still available, a seller could then do it outside of eBay because now they am not "breaking" their rules? I guess that would be a loop hole in their policy? Correct? OR do they now have to list back on eBay to sell to that buyer in your opinion. Just asking.

mrdallas said:

I never said you had to have answers to have an opinion. But you are quick to call out people for "stealing" which i think is a bold statement.
Under your pretense I am assuming then it would be OK if the listing ended without being sold, a buyer reaches out to see if the item is still available, a seller could then do it outside of eBay because now they am not "breaking" their rules? I guess that would be a loop hole in their policy? Correct? OR do they now have to list back on eBay to sell to that buyer in your opinion. Just asking.

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Eh I don't really have a problem with that. Like you said, it's a loophole and something ebay at least attempts to do what they can to stop (by trying to block putting email addresses in messages) but if push came to shove it's not like they can force you to re-list something so they get paid.

sportscardtheory said:

No it's not.

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Actually, it is. Pretty cut and dry too. Not even a little bit of gray area. Very straightforward, but keep fighting the good fight, Robin Hood.

So....I sold the card off ebay through paypal...I know it's wrong. But I did it anyway because they get enough of my money and I wanted to make as much as possible for my card. Plus they still own paypal and still got their 2.9% cut so screw them. So they got something out of me. Those who disagree with it- I'm sorry. But what have you done that is not honest in the last day, week or month? Thank you and I appreciate your comments.

JEBJJA said:

So....I sold the card off ebay through paypal...I know it's wrong. But I did it anyway because they get enough of my money and I wanted to make as much as possible for my card. Plus they still own paypal and still got their 2.9% cut so screw them. So they got something out of me. Those who disagree with it- I'm sorry. But what have you done that is not honest in the last day, week or month? Thank you and I appreciate your comments.

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You admit that what you did was wrong, you admit that you cheated the very website that facilitated the sale of your item. You don't care, that's great. You owned it and that's fine. The argument in this thread is the mouthbreathers like sportscardtheory who are trying to legitimize the act that you admit was wrong.


I don't care what any of you do, just don't try and legitimize it. Own that you are stealing from the website that sold your card and go about your day.

Lancemountain said:

You admit that what you did was wrong, you admit that you cheated the very website that facilitated the sale of your item. You don't care, that's great. You owned it and that's fine. The argument in this thread is the mouthbreathers like sportscardtheory who are trying to legitimize the act that you admit was wrong.


I don't care what any of you do, just don't try and legitimize it. Own that you are stealing from the website that sold your card and go about your day.

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Wait for him to tell you that he won't report the sale on his taxes. ZOMG! *head explodes*

IndyManning18 said:

Wait for him to tell you that he won't report the sale on his taxes. ZOMG! *head explodes*

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***I pay enough in taxes. I shouldn't have to pay my FULL FAIR SHARE because I feel as though I have paid enough****

Everyone in this thread has accepted paypal gift at one point as well. I don't care what you say but EVERYONE has either bought or accepted it. If you say you didn't then you must have had a stint in politics at one point. Everyone in this thread has taken a couple extra napkins at the fast food joint on the way out to keep in your car in case you crap yourselves when you have the big monster hit or if you drip ice cream. Well, that is stealing too. Did you cheat on a test? Did you cheat on your girlfriend/wife/boyfriend/husband? I have to say both because the way this world is these days it might not be politically correct if I just say girlfriend and not include boyfriend. Stop acting like you are saints and man up!

Some people have very loose and free interpretations of illegal and stealing.

Lancemountain said:

Actually, it is. Pretty cut and dry too. Not even a little bit of gray area. Very straightforward, but keep fighting the good fight, Robin Hood.

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Please explain to everyone how it is against the law to end an ebay listing and sell it on your own. Please tell us what law is being broken and what the punishments are for breaking said law. Since it's so "cut and dry", it should be really easy to find just ONE instance of a person being arrested for "stealing" from ebay by ending a listing.