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Thread: eBay amends policy on contacting buyer/seller to deal off eBay

  1. #16
    Senior Member AnthonyCorona's Avatar
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    Or would I list a card for 350. Make the trade then lower the price to .10 and then end it?

    Bring me your Bickford, Ryan McMahon, Senzatela and Peter Lambert cards
    Please note: Card collecting is my hobby, not my life. I don't take it that serious and like to keep it fun.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Musial Collector's Avatar
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    Sent using my two hands, ten fingers, a keyboard and an internet connection.

  3. #18
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    In an earlier post in this thread, you wrote:
    There is nothing wrong with listing an item eBay and pulling it if there are ZERO bids. Absolutely nothing.
    I list stuff on eBay and in Facebook groups. If it sells in a Facebook group, I end the listing on eBay. Granted I currently only do BIN/BO, but should be no different if auctioning it off and the item has ZERO bids, I should be able to end the auction without incurring fees.
    Quote Originally Posted by Musial Collector View Post
    YOU make a TON of assumptions!
    I never said I was selling cards! Just because this is a sportscard based forum, don't assume!
    You said you sell cards. You list them on ebay and complete them on FB.

    I never said I use Ebay to generate interest in the product I'm selling! That was your assumption!
    Of course you do. That's why you list cards on ebay. Ebay gives your cards visible and drums up interest for bids if you'd ever let your cards run on ebay.

    I do not cross platform endorse my products! Again, that was your assumption!
    of course you do. You list on ebay, cancel your ebay listing when you sell it on FB.

    I CAN sell my product anywhere I choose! Ebay's TOS Does NOT state that I cannot sell elsewhere! If it does, show me, as I cannot locate that specific language you speak of!
    if you sell on FB, don't list the card on ebay to generate interest in completing the trade on FB. It's apparently sellers like you that caused ebay to change their TOS so they aren't promoting off-ebay sales without getting anything from it between the free ebay listing you get and the lack of FVF since it's sold off platform.

    [/quote]Ebay gives specific instructions on how to end listings early, what fees will be associated (IF ANY) with ending early![/QUOTE]

    and that's what they are tightening up on starting November 1st due to abuse of their website. You can cancel it now but they get the legal right
    in November to determine whether or not they collect a FVF from you for canceling your listing because they think you are completing a sale offsite.

    I'd also disagree with your statement about ending an auction early with zero bids because there are probably snipers standing by at the end of the auction to give your item bids so you don't know for sure there are zero bids on your item.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyCorona View Post
    I know u don't work for ebay so I'm not expecting u to have the sure answer but let's say I have a card listed for $350. It's something with a real value or maybe 100. I make a 100 dollar trade and pay 350 FV?
    I imagine ebay will charge FVF on recent completed sales or use a well know, established price guide like beckett to give an estimated value to calculate the FVF.

    Obviously what you do is don't list the item on ebay and post your FS/trade only on BO, Twitter, FB, whatever and complete it there without involving ebay.

  5. #20
    Senior Member TNP777's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure the FVF will only be charged if, and only if, a seller had contact with a prospective buyer using eBay's messaging system about a product the seller was offering, and then said product all of a sudden was no longer for sale.

    Without that verifiable contact through eBay, there's no way for them to legally prove or even assume that the product was somehow sold or traded or lost in a fire/flood or pulled back because the seller simply changed their mind about selling the item.

    That allows us to cross-promote our items anywhere we want: on our personal web sites (like 4SC does) or Facebook groups or message boards or anywhere else. None of those buy/sell/trade discussions are initiated using eBay's messaging system, therefore no eBay terms of service are violated.

    That's my take, anyway.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNP777 View Post
    I'm pretty sure the FVF will only be charged if, and only if, a seller had contact with a prospective buyer using eBay's messaging system about a product the seller was offering, and then said product all of a sudden was no longer for sale.

    Without that verifiable contact through eBay, there's no way for them to legally prove or even assume that the product was somehow sold or traded or lost in a fire/flood or pulled back because the seller simply changed their mind about selling the item.

    That allows us to cross-promote our items anywhere we want: on our personal web sites (like 4SC does) or Facebook groups or message boards or anywhere else. None of those buy/sell/trade discussions are initiated using eBay's messaging system, therefore no eBay terms of service are violated.

    That's my take, anyway.
    That's exactly how I interpreted it. There just has to be some dialogue, no matter how small, in their message system creating a paper trail and couple that with ending an item early...and BAM FVF potentially charged.

  7. #22
    Senior Member RStadlerASU22's Avatar
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    If someone wants to get around this, AND that's if. I would say the best route would be to sell the card elsewhere, say were talking a $100 card, and don't end the listing, but jack the price up to $1000, where it wouldn't sell... Yes/No?

    Ryan
    Will Clark / Mike Brown Collector
    ALWAYS LOOKING FOR ODDBALL, REGIONAL, TEAM ISSUED, VARIATIONS, AND TOUGH CARDS OF WILL CLARK AND MIKE BROWN



  8. #23
    Senior Member AnthonyCorona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RStadlerASU22 View Post
    If someone wants to get around this, AND that's if. I would say the best route would be to sell the card elsewhere, say were talking a $100 card, and don't end the listing, but jack the price up to $1000, where it wouldn't sell... Yes/No?

    Ryan
    Will Clark / Mike Brown Collector
    Round of applause

    Bring me your Bickford, Ryan McMahon, Senzatela and Peter Lambert cards
    Please note: Card collecting is my hobby, not my life. I don't take it that serious and like to keep it fun.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Juan Gris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RStadlerASU22 View Post
    If someone wants to get around this, AND that's if. I would say the best route would be to sell the card elsewhere, say were talking a $100 card, and don't end the listing, but jack the price up to $1000, where it wouldn't sell... Yes/No?

    Ryan
    Will Clark / Mike Brown Collector
    That's exactly what I was thinking. I agree with eBay needing to protect its interests but this should be a solid work-around to how they worded this new policy.
    Always Looking For Adam Dunn Autograph Cards!

  10. #25
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    I think the original poster had it right and the subsequent conversation has avoided the truly pernicious nature of ebay's TOS change. Throwing out some thoughts now as seen through my philosophical lens:

    I am a believer in laissez-faire capitalism. That is largely NOT what we have in western society I might add. It tends more toward corporate fascism and features gov interventionism (Central Banking policies, health care, etc, etc). Special rules apply to the large, the powerful, the connected. But you know what? Ebay was one of the last bastions of real capitalism on the margins. And what was beautiful about it was that its platform made capitalism and a wide potential buying pool openly accessible to anyone. Now granted, FVF was a mere 1.5% when I started there in the late 90’s, and they have since ratcheted up, stabilizing at the present 10% for most categories. But it was largely hands-off. And in that time ebay has flourished, generating real, significant earnings – this contrasted with companies like Amazon, Netflix, Twitter, and a host of other Dot Com 2.0 companies that do not actually make money.

    What is this new TOS from ebay? It is toxic interventionism. It represents that they own you and your ability to sell, and not just through their ebay.com portal, but everywhere. Think about that. Through their autocratic role as judge, jury, and executioner they will not simply monitor your messages, but now they will at minimum monitor your paypal transactions. And anything that did not originate on ebay? Well let’s try this scenario out: “You once tried to sell something for $50 and you curiously just received $50 in your account. I am pretty sure that is related and I will take my 10% cut until you prove otherwise.” You cannot prove a negative. This is heavy-handed aggression plain and simple.

    I am also a firm believer in the old axiom that goes something like this, “Take your hand and run it through a pile of sand. Held loosely, with an open hand, the sand remains where it is. The minute you close your hand and squeeze tightly, the sand trickles through your fingers. You may hold on to some of it, but most will be spilled.” This is really a pathetic move by ebay. They are deluded into thinking they own both their buyers and their sellers. And by putting this clamp down they will somehow generate more sales. They will not. Aggression, and make no mistake that is what this is, drives away business. Personally, I find this TOS change offensive. The sort of thing a company like Equifax would do. Going forward I know I will attempt to drive more sales outside of ebay through existing customers, even if for less money. Partially driven by my philosophy to avoid supporting those clowns for sure, but also as a risk mitigation. Why do business at a place where they may try and block your account, issue you a bill without cause, hold your funds via paypal, or who knows what else? Forget that.

    Now, finally, the door has really opened. If another sports card transaction & auction site can open up and create a critical mass of seller’s inventory, then ebay can be left in the dust. You can only squeeze, threaten, and extort your seller base for so long before they go elsewhere. I know personally I have approx. 15,000 pre-prepped items that I can take and list for sale anywhere and would gladly do so given favorable terms. I just continue to sell via ebay (only with free listings - I do not pay for the right to possibly sell my inventory) as items sell there at a premium.

    But what about comc? Is not the entire premise of the COMC/ebay listing practice exactly what this TOS is about? I never buy a single card from COMC on ebay. But when I see a COMC card there that I want, I go straight to COMC.com and buy it there. And almost always the item there is cheaper and many times even on sale! Or will ebay instead take a model from our gov and initiate a two tier justice system. Where mega sellers like comc or even Burbank via Beckett Marketplace are exempt from this TOS, and perhaps they pay a monthly “fee” on the order of $10,000 or more in order to keep their cross listing non-ebay transacting practice alive? After all, that is the very nature of who we are now – selective enforcement. Granted ebay's BS TOS is a far cry from the US Constitution. As an add-on to Ryan’s commentary I can see these suggestions as advice in navigating this anti-commerce TOS change:

    1. Get a new paypal account. One completely non-connected to your ebay email address/paypal account. Do not commingle funds. Use this for any direct business. Avoid putting excessive text into the transaction logs just in case.
    2. Minimize the use of ebay messages. It is clear they will be used against you.
    3. Do not use a debit card or checking account on file for payment of ebay bills. Use a credit card so as to be protected by a stronger payment dispute policy.
    4. Keep very little funds in any of your paypal accounts.
    a. Less money for ebay/paypal to steal
    b. Don’t let them make money on the float and indirectly support their paypal usury practices of "buy now, pay later!"
    5. Do not ask sellers to transact off ebay, at least not directly via ebay msg. It is immoral to knowingly cause force to be initiated upon another, even if you are not the one initiating force. Instead, engage in a very small transaction with them. Pay via paypal, and get their email address in your receipt of payment. Then contact them directly via email and continue discussion there. Until ebay gets every email provider on board to read your emails (or if they recruit the NSA, lol!) they will be toothless.

  11. #26
    Administrator phillyfan0417's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsmath View Post
    Yes, you can't sell your card anywhere else if you listed it on ebay. If you want to sell on FB or whatever, don't list that particular card on ebay!

    You may want to quit using ebay to generate interest in your cards that you sell on FB or you'll be hit with quite a few FVF!
    I don't believe that's what its saying...unless I'm misunderstanding you.

    If I have a card on ebay and I post it on FB and it sells on FB, how would ebay determine I sold the card if no communication happens on their system?
    "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
    --Winston Churchill

  12. #27
    Senior Member AnthonyCorona's Avatar
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    @chippercards.com 2020

    Bring me your Bickford, Ryan McMahon, Senzatela and Peter Lambert cards
    Please note: Card collecting is my hobby, not my life. I don't take it that serious and like to keep it fun.

  13. #28
    Senior Member TNP777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyfan0417 View Post
    I don't believe that's what its saying...unless I'm misunderstanding you.

    If I have a card on ebay and I post it on FB and it sells on FB, how would ebay determine I sold the card if no communication happens on their system?
    Exactly

  14. #29
    Senior Member Casebusters's Avatar
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    It's all the buyers faults for doing outside ebay transactions..
    They want it cheaper and this is the only way to get them to buy cheaper while the seller doesn't lose money.
    So in reality, Selling off ebay is helping "ebay buyers" save money as ebay always likes the buyers more than their real customers, the sellers.
    Check out our Baseball singles at http://www.casebusters.com

    <--------Check out our Group Breaks & Vintage Set breaks on ebay

  15. #30
    Senior Member Casebusters's Avatar
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    Wanna sell off ebay to buyer cheaper, on BIN only, or auction before a bid? (btw, I never end auctions once I list).
    Just change the title and price, have the buyer buy that item and you sell the real item you want..

    I ended 3 auctions last week because I omitted a couple key words in the title and relisted them. Not sure if I had to pay the fees for making a mistake..
    I listed a 1952 Topps Pete Reiser PSA 1.5 and forgot to add the gray back in the title so I ended it..
    That's only a $4400 mistake. lol
    Check out our Baseball singles at http://www.casebusters.com

    <--------Check out our Group Breaks & Vintage Set breaks on ebay

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