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Thread: No love for Beltran?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    He's one of those very good players who compiled great overall numbers over a long career.
    But at no point during his playing career did I ever think he was a Hall of Famer. Few people did.

    He never led the league in anything but games played once, and was only Top 10 in MVP votes twice in 20 years.

    The difference in a Hall of Famer with similar or lesser career stats like Dawson, Rice, Billy Williams, Cepeda, etc. is that they were dominate players. Beltran wasn't.

    But he'll eventually get elected because of his gaudy compiled numbers, especially being among the few with 1,500 runs, 1,500 rbi, 400 homers, 300 steals and 2,500 hits. That's impressive and definitely worthy of being elected.
    He was the best center fielder in baseball for more than a decade from 1999 - 2009. Andruw Jones is a close second over that time period. He's the ninth best CF of all time by fWAR and 6th best by fWAR in the modern era (1919 - present). If you don't think that's Hall of Fame worthy then you might as well throw out 80% of the people currently in the Hall. He wasn't necessarily flashy like Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds (who should have gotten more chances on the ballot) but he was better than both during their respective peaks, which all more or less line up.
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  2. #17
    Junior Member forgerelli's Avatar
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    No offense to the poster above, but whenever someone says the word "compile" in any of its iterations, during a hall of fame discussion, I just roll my eyes and walk away.

    The hall of fame has not been Dimaggio, Mays, Wagner, Ruth and Mathewson level players since 1945. There are a lot of mistakes that have been made, adding Beltran is nowhere near a mistake.

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  3. #18
    Senior Member Austin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forgerelli View Post
    The hall of fame has not been Dimaggio, Mays, Wagner, Ruth and Mathewson level players since 1945.
    There hasn't been a Mays or Wagner level of player since 1945? You're discounting the upper-tier greats of the '50s and '60s like Musial, Aaron, Mantle, Koufax, Spahn and tons more.

    And non-steroid modern players like Griffey, Pujols, Maddox, Gwynn, Cabrera, Pedro and Randy Johnson all belong in that upper-tier of the Hall of Fame along with Mays and certainly Wagner.
    Last edited by Austin; 11-14-2017 at 09:51 PM.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    There hasn't been a Mays or Wagner level of player since 1945? You're discounting the upper-tier greats of the '50s and '60s like Musial, Aaron, Mantle, Koufax, Spahn and tons more.

    And non-steroid modern players like Griffey, Pujols, Maddox, Gwynn, Cabrera, Pedro and Randy Johnson all belong in that upper-tier of the Hall of Fame along with Mays and certainly Wagner.
    I may have read him wrong, but I think he meant that the HOF was not limited to that level of player since 1945, not that there haven't been inner circle players since.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Austin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topnotchsy View Post
    I may have read him wrong, but I think he meant that the HOF was not limited to that level of player since 1945, not that there haven't been inner circle players since.
    The wording and the 1945 date is what confused me, although he probably just threw a date out there.

    HOF voting only started in 1936 and there weren't even HOF elections in '40, '41, '43 and '44 because of rule changes, voter confusion and the new museum being built. In '42 only Hornsby was chosen.

    So with elections in only '36-'39 and '42, there were many elections beyond '45 that contained only the greatest of the greats since voters had an enormous backlog of 70+ years of legends to choose from.

    Regardless, as I wrote, I do believe Beltran is a Hall of Famer, even though it didn't become apparent until his career was almost finished.
    Last edited by Austin; 11-15-2017 at 05:29 AM.
    Set builder, autograph hunter and fan of the Texas Rangers & '50s-'60s Yankees

  6. #21
    Junior Member forgerelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topnotchsy View Post
    I may have read him wrong, but I think he meant that the HOF was not limited to that level of player since 1945, not that there haven't been inner circle players since.
    Yes, that's what I meant. In 1945 the Veterans Committee elected a bunch of borderline guys and the next year started electing outright mistakes. It got REALLY bad in the 70's.

    I cannot recommend Bill James' "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame" enough. I've read just about every book I could find on Hall of Fame selection and standards and that book is still the best, even though it's 25+ years old and I disagree with some of it now.

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    Mariano Rivera Super Collector. Always buying rare Mo's - PSA's, Auto's, Patches, Printing Plates, or any other rare Mo's. I PAY MORE THAN ANYONE FOR MARIANO'S I NEED.

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