3 new HOF inductees- 2017 BBWAA Voting

goobmcnasty said:

So, basically what the sports writers are telling us is:

Cocaine okay.

Steroids okay.

Steroids not okay.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...jeff-bagwell-tim-raines-steroid-era/96742034/

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Yes. Let's get over it.

goobmcnasty said:

The career totals seem way "above and beyond" Raines though...

2295 Runs 1571
3055 Hits 2605
297 HRs 170
1115 RBIs 980
1406 SBs 808
.279 BA .294
.401 OBP .385
.820 OPS .810
25 Years 23

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Lofton had a career similar to Raines and didn't make it past the first ballot with only 3.2%

Runs 1528
Hits 2428
HRs 130
RBIs 781
SBs 622
BA .299
OBP .372
OPS .794
Years 17

Do a side by side of Rickey, Raines, Lofton

Sent from my SM-G900V using Freedom Card Board mobile app

121 Runs 102 Runs 118
161 Hits 169 Hits 187
16 HRs 11 HRS 10
59 RBIs 63 HRs 60
74 SBs 52 SBs 48
.279 BA .294 BA .299
.401 OBP .385 OBP .372
.820 OPS .810 OPS 794
25 Years 23 Years 17

Career
3081 Games 2502 Games 2103
2295 Runs 1571 Runs 1528
3055 Hits 2605 Hits 2428
297 HRs 170 HRs 130
1115 RBIs 980 RBIs 945
1406 SBs 808 SBs 622
.279 BA .294 BA .299
.401 OBP .385 OBP .372
.820 OPS .810 OPS .794
25 Years 23

Rickey - Raines - Lofton

goobmcnasty said:

The career totals seem way "above and beyond" Raines though...

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Comparing Rickey's record numbers to Raines like that is like saying Hank Aaron's career totals seem way "above and beyond" (name most other Hall of Famers). Rickey was the best of the best. And that doesn't make Raines not a great player. He just wasn't in the Rickey, Aaron, Ruth, Mays category.

But being called the second greatest leadoff hitter in modern history, by guys like Bill James, Bob Costas and other baseball experts, says something.

Something people don't realize about Raines. He's listed as having played 23 seasons. But in reality he played 14-15 full seasons.

His first "season," he was called up at age 19 for and played only 6 games. His second "season" at age 20, he played 15 games.
And his final six seasons, plus an entirely-missed 2000, he barely played because he was suffering through debilitating Lupus, which he hardly told any about because he didn't want to use it as an excuse. If Raines had been healthy, he'd have well over 3,000 hits and would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer since writers love those milestones.

Raines also had 3,000 fewer plate appearances to Rickey, 10359 to 13347, or at least five full healthy seasons, so comparing career numbers isn't fair. In the 162-game averages, Raines actually beats Rickey in a few categories, and has a higher career stolen base percentage.
Raines even reached base more times than Tony Gwynn.

As for Lofton, I think he's a Hall of Famer too, and if he would have lasted a few more years he would be in, or at least still be on the ballot with a respectable percentage.

It seems like the past year or two, there has been a lot of lobbying for Raines to be inducted. The Hall of Fame is for the best of the best, so comparing him to other leadoff hitters also in the Hall of Fame IS fair. Playing what-if based on injuries/health can't be done either. There are a lot of guys who had hall-worthy seasons, but whose careers ended short for whatever reason. They shouldn't be inducted either. When I think HOFers, I think of extremely dominant players who were dominant for a long career. I don't ever remember watching Raines and thinking "Wow, he is among the best of the best." Being the 2nd best leadoff hitter in the 80s doesn't qualify you, in my opinion.

goobmcnasty said:

It seems like the past year or two, there has been a lot of lobbying for Raines to be inducted. The Hall of Fame is for the best of the best, so comparing him to other leadoff hitters also in the Hall of Fame IS fair. Playing what-if based on injuries/health can't be done either. There are a lot of guys who had hall-worthy seasons, but whose careers ended short for whatever reason. They shouldn't be inducted either. When I think HOFers, I think of extremely dominant players who were dominant for a long career. I don't ever remember watching Raines and thinking "Wow, he is among the best of the best." Being the 2nd best leadoff hitter in the 80s doesn't qualify you, in my opinion.

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You're comparing him to one leadoff hitter, Rickey Henderson, the greatest ever. That's my point. It's like saying Jeff Bagwell or Jim Thome aren't Hall of Famers because they're not Lou Gehrig or even Albert Pujols.

And why is second best a bad thing? Guys like Costas and Bill James call Raines the second best leadoff hitter ever.

I mentioned Raines' Lupus and fewer seasons because you compared his career stats with Rickey's saying they were far inferior. Of course they were. Career stats can't be compared when one player has 3,000 more plate appearances. And no one's claiming Raines was as great as Henderson anyway.

If you don't think Raines is a Hall of Famer, that's perfectly fine and your opinion. You even said you grew up watching Bagwell and other greats of the '90s, which was well past Raines' prime of the '80s.

Many HOF voters, who also barely saw him play, thought the same as you for years, until they were enlightened by experts showing them how great of player Raines actually was.

I'll take the opinions of practically every baseball expert and statistician that Raines should have been inducted in to the HOF years ago.

Remember, no one's saying Raines was as great as Henderson, but he was known as the NL counterpart. But if the Hall of Fame was limited to only the greatest of the greats, instead of all of the greats, there would be 50 players in the HOF and several years would often go by without players being inducted.

The Hall of Fame celebrates the game and the players who made it great. We should be more concerned about who is not being inducted rather than who is being voted it. What's so wrong with celebrating lots of great players? People act like it's some horrible injustice to include some players. How dare Ozzie Smith stand alongside Honus Wagner!
It's freaking baseball. The more great players who are celebrated, the better.

bstanwood said:

I'm happy for all three of those guys. Well earned congrats to them.
I can't stand the voting, it will never be perfect but what put raines over the top this year!?!? It's been awhile since he swiped a base. Pretty upset about Hoffman and vladdy, they should have made it.
I look at the ballot and the steroid era really mucks it up but they get to vote 10 in, Tim Raines should not have waited this long, it's not like they were electing 10 guys a year until now. And for the ~26% that didn't vote for hoffman, why not? What are we waiting for? His fastball/changeup combo won't improve before next January, when he will likely get in.
I have to stop or my rant will become uncontrollable.

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One of the things that put Tim Raines over the top this year was that it was his last year on the ballot. Same thing for Jim Rice, except for him it was his 15th and final year on the ballot. Some baseball writers, I'm sure, felt a little giulty about not putting them in earlier, so they decided to vote for them in their last year of eligibility.

Can't wait for the 2018 HOF voting. Should be a nice clean class with Thome, Chipper, Hoffman, and Vlad. Or at least 3 of those 4 should make it in.

If i was Raines i would be like FU!!! If i wasnt worthy enough the last x amount of years then im not now.

You're a HOFer or you're not.

I hate the baseball hall of fame and the whole process so i could care less who gets what. The whole thing is a joke.

Austin said:

Raines also had 3,000 fewer plate appearances to Rickey, 10359 to 13347, or at least five full healthy seasons, so comparing career numbers isn't fair. In the 162-game averages, Raines actually beats Rickey in a few categories, and has a higher career stolen base percentage.
Raines even reached base more times than Tony Gwynn.

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Most of what you posted is totally fair. But this paragraph is quite a bit off. When talking about careers and the HOF, it's a quality and quantity topic. 162-game averages consider only the quality component. That's very limited. Staying on the field is a positive attribute and combines with quality to produce great quantity. And keeping up the great quality over the long season - and long career - is huge. In a true comparison of careers, it's not only fair to - along with other factors - compare totals, it's necessary.

But you are very much right that the key to discussing Raines / Rickey is that such comparison fruitless because it's not like Rickey's the hurdle / minimally qualified. A comparison to someone like Gwynn is much more informative.

goobmcnasty said:

It seems like the past year or two, there has been a lot of lobbying for Raines to be inducted. The Hall of Fame is for the best of the best, so comparing him to other leadoff hitters also in the Hall of Fame IS fair. Playing what-if based on injuries/health can't be done either. There are a lot of guys who had hall-worthy seasons, but whose careers ended short for whatever reason. They shouldn't be inducted either. When I think HOFers, I think of extremely dominant players who were dominant for a long career. I don't ever remember watching Raines and thinking "Wow, he is among the best of the best." Being the 2nd best leadoff hitter in the 80s doesn't qualify you, in my opinion.

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It hasn't been just the last year or two. There's also been a lot of learning over the last few years about what makes a baseball player valuable to his team; much of which has been pooh-pooh'd by 'traditionalists', but is slowly winning the acceptance of them. As more people are coming around to the non-traditional stats, they're recognizing that Raines was HOF-worthy.

There's a reason players don't make the ballot until 5 years past their retirement and then have a bunch of years of eligibility. Raines is one of the success points of that system. Sure, he's not one of the best 25 players ever, but him getting in doesn't lower the HOF bar. If you don't believe that, someday you should make a purely unbiased comparison of Raines' career to Tony Gywnn's.

U L Washington Rookie said:

It hasn't been just the last year or two. There's also been a lot of learning over the last few years about what makes a baseball player valuable to his team; much of which has been pooh-pooh'd by 'traditionalists', but is slowly winning the acceptance of them. As more people are coming around to the non-traditional stats, they're recognizing that Raines was HOF-worthy.

There's a reason players don't make the ballot until 5 years past their retirement and then have a bunch of years of eligibility. Raines is one of the success points of that system. Sure, he's not one of the best 25 players ever, but him getting in doesn't lower the HOF bar. If you don't believe that, someday you should make a purely unbiased comparison of Raines' career to Tony Gywnn's.

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I actually wasn’t biased until I compared their careers. Now I truly don't think Gwynn and Raines should be in the same sentence. I’m just not seeing how they were that similar. I believe that if you’re truly great, your greatness will be noticed while you’re still playing… not years later when different stat formulas are introduced.

If you play 20 seasons, and are a career .338 hitter, that’s pretty much all the HOF credentials you need, in my opinion. But looking at the other stats, Raines scored more runs and stole more bases, like 99% of all leadoff hitters should do. Otherwise, Gwynn’s career (and 162 game average) numbers seem more HOF worthy.

Stats aside, here are some accolades from when they were playing. Again, GREATNESS should be obvious while a player is playing. It's like the nondescript, average, quiet girl nobody noticed in high school. Just because she got a boob job after college, doesn't mean we should go back and make her homecoming queen.

Gwynn – Raines
0 MVPs between the both of them
15 All-Star Games, 10 Starts – 7 All-Star Games, 2 Starts
8 Batting Titles (13 Top 5 finishes) – 1 Batting Title (3 Top 5 finishes)
5 Gold Gloves – 0 Gold Gloves
7 Silver Sluggers – 0 Silver Sluggers
5 NL Player of the Month - 0 (These aren’t huge awards, but to never have a dominating month…)
10 NL Player of the Week - 0 (…or even a dominating week)

moxacaine said:

If i was Raines i would be like FU!!! If i wasnt worthy enough the last x amount of years then im not now.

You're a HOFer or you're not.

I hate the baseball hall of fame and the whole process so i could care less who gets what. The whole thing is a joke.

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Not to the players. It is still the most exclusive sports Hall of Fame and it is a great honor for them. No one would ditch that recognition ever.