My 2013 HOF Ballot

Here is what my ballot would look like

Yes
Mike Piazza
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Jeff Bagwell
Maybe
Curt Schilling
Craig Biggio
Larry Walker

And No on everyone else

wolfmanalfredo said:

Even with roid users, i'd like to see Morris, Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens get in. Schilling will get in because he was on that 04 boston team.

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That's not the only reason he will get in. He is one of the, if not the, best postseason pitcher of all time. 3,000 K's...over 200 wins, SECOND all time in K/BB ratio...and his career ERA+ is the same as Bob Gibson's and Tom Seaver's...127.

The 2004 performance and Red Sox team just adds to HOF legacy.

Not to mention he would have a couple Cy Youngs if his teammate wasn't the greatest LHP of all time.

19braves77 said:

a poll done last week of some writers ballots has Piazza, Biggio, Clemens, and Bonds getting in... I doubt that happens on January 6th.

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ESPN's poll of a few dozen writers who already voted showed Bonds and Clemens each receiving less than 50%.

MansGame said:

Jesus... baseball-reference shows he played 23 MLB season! OK, so it isn't 25 but I said NEARLY 25 years.

Also, I feel sorry for anyone fighting an illness or that has a condition or that gets injured BUT that's life and it's the Hall of Fame and NOT the Hall of "what could of been" Fame. Sorry, you don't think Bo Jackson wants to be in the MLB or NFL Hall of Fame? Probably would be if it wasn't for his career ending injury. I bet a lot of people could pull the coulda woulda shoulda card...

And as I said in a previous post, try to make an argument for him without using the words "would have" or "could have" or "should have" etc. The dude was a good player don't get me wrong... he stole a lot of bases which is sweet and he was also an all-star... cool... but not HOFer.

And to your point, I'll just use Albert Belle for an example... you don't think someone could make a similar argument for why he should be in the HOF because of what he could of been or should of done if it wasn't for having a shortened career?!

I guess we will see with the voting... maybe I'm alone here with the argument... maybe he is a sure bet HOFer.

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Belle should be in the Hall of Fame for what he did. Nevermind what he could have done.

Ranking the 2013 Hall of Fame candidates: No. 5, Tim Raines - CBSSports.com

Here is a great case for Raines as a HOFer and guess who the author compares Raines to???...Tony Gwynn.

sebpoo said:

Also, 170 home runs and 980 RBI are not bad for a guy who was a 1st hitter most of his career.

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297 home runs and 1115 RBI for a guy who was a 1st hitter most of his career is what most people compare him to.

Gonzaleznut said:

Ranking the 2013 Hall of Fame candidates: No. 5, Tim Raines - CBSSports.com

Here is a great case for Raines as a HOFer and guess who the author compares Raines to???...Tony Gwynn.

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Not really a great case...just someone writing an article trying to sound like he knows what he is talking about. I'll bet someone out there could write a completely and perfectly believable article about Brady Anderson belonging in the Hall of Fame. cjedmonton's contest had me looking up stats, so I looked a little more closely at Raines...
Top 10 League MVP-Gwynn 7x, Raines 3x
Team MVP- Gwynn 7x, Raines 0
Silver Slugger- Gwynn 7x, Raines 1
All-Star- Gwynn 15x, Raines 7x
Gold Glove- Gwynn 5x, Raines 0
Batting Champ- Gwynn 8x, Raines 1
Top 10 Batting-Gwynn 15x, Raines 4x
Top 10 OBP- Gwynn 9x, Raines 7x
Top 10 Runs- Gwynn 5x, Raines 8x
Top 10 Hits- Gwynn 12x, Raines 6x
Top 10 Triples- Gwynn 6x, Raines 9x
Top 10 Doubles- Gwynn 6x, Raines 3x
Top 10 SB- Gwynn 3x, Raines 11x

1998 Sporting News Top 100 Baseball Players of All-Time
Gwynn-#49, Raines-Not listed
1999 MLB.Com All-Century Team
Gwynn is on it, Raines is not
2010 Bleacher Report Top 100 Baseball Players of All-Time
Gwynn-#36, Raines-Not Listed

Tony Gwynn in his career won the Lou Gehrig Award, the Branch Rickey Award and the Roberto Clemente Award.

The MOST pitiful thing, besides people comparing Gwynn to Raines, is that Tim Raines got 24% votes in 1st year of eligibility, then 22%, 30%, 37% and then 48% last year. WTF is that? It's like the voters get lazier and lazier each year. "Oh, he stole 808 bases? Hmmm, maybe he should be in the Hall!" They forget that he's a admitted drug user (during games), struck out 966 times, had only a few really good years, and was completely average only a few more times, and pretty much sucked the rest of the years.

Gwynn didn't walk as much as Raines because he was kinda busy getting hits instead.

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MansGame said:

It's interesting to have him as a top 10 LF's of ALL TIME and he NEVER won a gold glove in the outfield.

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And how many GG's has Jeter won? One of the top defensive SS of all time because of that? Please, defense is sink or swim with HOF voters, always has been. Ozzie passes that test but few others have.

And I agree that Schilling was a damn good pitcher, but he's also a 1st ballot ******. I can't see him getting in first ballot and probably not for years at all.

D-Lite said:

And how many GG's has Jeter won? One of the top defensive SS of all time because of that? Please, defense is sink or swim with HOF voters, always has been. Ozzie passes that test but few others have.

And I agree that Schilling was a damn good pitcher, but he's also a 1st ballot ******. I can't see him getting in first ballot and probably not for years at all.

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I'm on an iPhone and can't do much looking back but if I remember correctly, someone said he was one of the best LF's to play the game and I said how can you say that if he won ZERO gold gloves as an outfielder?!

If your point is "well Raises sucked at defense but so what"... well... are you saying with your comment that Jeter is as good as Raines was with his position?! Haha

I think the entire point is you can't make a 100% case for Raines based on his offensive stats and someone was like "he is a top ten LF of all-time" and I was quick to point out he won ZERO gold gloves, essentially diffusing the defensive side of his game helping his case.

PadresFan86 said:

Gwynn didn't walk as much as Raines because he was kinda busy getting hits instead.

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Exactly.

MansGame said:

I'm on an iPhone and can't do much looking back but if I remember correctly, someone said he was one of the best LF's to play the game and I said how can you say that if he won ZERO gold gloves as an outfielder?!

If your point is "well Raises sucked at defense but so what"... well... are you saying with your comment that Jeter is as good as Raines was with his position?! Haha

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No, the point is that GGs are a worthless "stat". Using GGs to measure HOF worthiness is fairly pointless at this point. It's roundly considered to be an award given to players that already excel offensively and is rarely given to the truly best defensive player. Most importantly, LF is a traditionally poor performing defensive position, a dumping ground for poor fielders, and as such LF's rarely get GGs since voters just assumed they were poorer fielders. Realize that for Raines' entire career GG in the OF was just given to three OFs, not a LF/CF/RF. In fact that was from '61 through 2010. Defensive metrics rate him as a very good if not excellent defender, especially considering the initial positional adjustment for LF vs the CF/RF.

PadresFan86 said:

Gwynn didn't walk as much as Raines because he was kinda busy getting hits instead.

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Didn't seem to matter with the hits since Raines scored 188 times more than Gwynn in only 127 more plate appearances. As it turns out, runs win games, at least the last time I checked.

D-Lite said:

Didn't seem to matter with the hits since Raines scored 188 times more than Gwynn in only 127 more plate appearances. As it turns out, runs win games, at least the last time I checked.

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Runs Scored...That's your case??? Raines has more RUNS so he deserves to be in the Hall???::facepalm::

D-Lite said:

Didn't seem to matter with the hits since Raines scored 188 times more than Gwynn in only 127 more plate appearances. As it turns out, runs win games, at least the last time I checked.

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Do you know how many sh*t teams Gwynn has played on? There wasn't any one to drive him in most the time :lol:

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Gwynn545 said:

Runs Scored...That's your case??? Raines has more RUNS so he deserves to be in the Hall???::facepalm::

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Um, no, the argument is not solely Hall worthiness, it's comparing Gwynn and Raines. No one should say that Gwynn, who was largely one dimensional (and excelled at it, yes), should be easy 1st ballot and that Raines should not be in at all.

PadresFan86 said:

Do you know how many sh*t teams Gwynn has played on? There wasn't any one to drive him in most the time :lol:

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And Raines' Expos squads were always elite?? Last I checked, Gwynn played in the postseason 3 times and Raines 5, 4 times of which were after his prime (3 yrs as a role player with the Yanks).

D-Lite said:

Um, no, the argument is not solely Hall worthiness, it's comparing Gwynn and Raines. No one should say that Gwynn, who was largely one dimensional (and excelled at it, yes), should be easy 1st ballot and that Raines should not be in at all.

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At least look at the stats...Not sure if numbers and letters are hard for you, but look at the stats, awards, accolades...They are not even close the same player. Yes, for a few years, Raines was good. Would you compare Brady Anderson to Hank Aaron?
Anderson had 50 HR in 1996, Hank had 47 in 1971...Anderson and Aaron were basically the same player... Don't even tell me that's a ridiculous comparison, because that is exactly what you people are doing when you compare Gwynn and Raines.:benson:

Runs is a team stat, plain and simple. If I'm even a little bit wrong about this, please enlighten me.

Gwynn545 said:

At least look at the stats...Not sure if numbers and letters are hard for you, but look at the stats, awards, accolades...They are not even close the same player. Yes, for a few years, Raines was good. Would you compare Brady Anderson to Hank Aaron?
Anderson had 50 HR in 1996, Hank had 47 in 1971...Anderson and Aaron were basically the same player... Don't even tell me that's a ridiculous comparison, because that is exactly what you people are doing when you compare Gwynn and Raines.:benson:

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If you believe that's the point of view of others, then you must be a politician. And all of this from someone with a Gwynn screenname and signature is especially hard to argue with.

I don't believe I'm saying they're the same player. In fact, I believe I said:

D-Lite said:

Um, no, the argument is not solely Hall worthiness, it's comparing Gwynn and Raines. No one should say that Gwynn, who was largely one dimensional (and excelled at it, yes), should be easy 1st ballot and that Raines should not be in at all.

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You do see the difference, yes? No where here have I said that either Gwynn should not be in nor that Raines should be 1st ballot. The goal in comparing the players is to demonstrate that the stats bear out that in many ways Raines was comparable in overall performance to a player that was a shoo-in HOF'er.

And you must realize as well that even though Gwynn played in a smaller market in SD that Raines played in the absolute WORST market of all, yes? Comparing awards and whatnot is foolish in many ways. They're not worthless, but the merit of comparing awards, which always boil down to a popularity contest in even remotely close instances, is weak.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion about this, please don't be ridiculous and compare this to Brady Anderson and Hank Aaron or any similar argument. Use some facts and actual statistics to support your argument and we can move on. GG, MVP, AS, etc are based on popularity alone. Cal Ripken was an All Star all those years in terms of performance? Was Jeter the best SS and deserving of all those (or any) Gold Gloves? In many ways perception can be reality, I agree, but when it comes to measuring the true performance of players while separating out regional bias I have a hard time. Everyone seems to hate the Yankees because they're popular yet that seems to win them a hell of a lot of awards and accolades they probably don't deserve, hm?