Thoughts on Andrew McCutchen

Marquise Grissom was off the top of my head at 1:38 am but I just looked up his stats and the Montreal and Atlanta years look like Cutch. A 20 hr guy with speed and alot of hits and not a ton of RBI's batting towards the top of the lineup in the beginning of their career.

gt2590 said:

Huh?

McCutchen is a much better Overall player and the unquestioned best player on his own team. Grissom was never that guy and didn't have nearly as much Power as McCutchen does. As for McCutch, being in Pittsburgh has hurt his appreciation and therefore values.

As far as his race affecting his cards, I don't buy it. Yes, Mantle's fans were probably affected, and not even aware of it, by his race but those days are over IMO. Being a Yankee probably helped his standing with fans more than his race anyway. Players like Kubek, Berra, Bernie and Jeter probably were more beloved for their being part of hugely successful teams than for their own Merits. In the last 30 years, their race hasn't affected fans' love of Griffey, Thomas or Gwynn. And people don't dislike Bonds, Puig or Rickey for their race, but for their perceived Attitudes.

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Cutch is by far the most exciting all around player I've had the opportunity to watch on a regular basis. I'd compare his bat speed to Gary Sheffield, he plays a premium defensive position (though I'd argue he should be in LF with Marte in CF), and his skill set just isn't one that is common in today's game. But the collector base simply is not there. There just aren't that many Pirates collectors out there, at least compared to the other Pittsburgh teams. Since the rise of inserts, Pittsburgh collectors have had Steelers teams that have made 4 Super Bowls and consistently been a playoff caliber team. The Pens have had two of the game's greatest players, and again largely been a perennial playoff team. Both teams have hardcore collectors with deep pockets who card prices up. Until recently, there really wasn't nearly as much to chase for Pirate cards. The aren't any Pirates in 99% of insert sets from the 90's and early 00's. Even when the Pirates did have a top tier player in Brian Giles (seriously, go look up his stats from 99-2002), he got almost no hobby love.

I still have a hard time finding Pirates cards at a show in the Pittsburgh area. Malkin, Crosby, Steelers are easy to find. I see about as many Pirate cards now as I did when the team was losing 100 games in 2006. I just think for the last two decades Pittsburgh sports fans who wanted to collect cards had much better options. I know plenty of people who are Pirates fans and card collectors, but their hobby dollars are going elsewhere.

I'm shocked that Cutch has yet to put together a better than 23/23 season.

gt2590 said:

Huh?

McCutchen is a much better Overall player and the unquestioned best player on his own team. Grissom was never that guy and didn't have nearly as much Power as McCutchen does. As for McCutch, being in Pittsburgh has hurt his appreciation and therefore values.

As far as his race affecting his cards, I don't buy it. Yes, Mantle's fans were probably affected, and not even aware of it, by his race but those days are over IMO. Being a Yankee probably helped his standing with fans more than his race anyway. Players like Kubek, Berra, Bernie and Jeter probably were more beloved for their being part of hugely successful teams than for their own Merits. In the last 30 years, their race hasn't affected fans' love of Griffey, Thomas or Gwynn. And people don't dislike Bonds, Puig or Rickey for their race, but for their perceived Attitudes.

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Here is the problem. Race and "perceived attitudes" go hand in hand.

You rarely hear about the "attitude" of white players. When white players do display "attitude", white fans usually love it, because it shows that the players are tough and rebellious. We white fans can relate to that, because we'd like to think that we're tough and rebellious, too.

Griffey, Thomas, Gwynn, Puckett, McCutchen, etc never really showed any attitude. They usually smile for the camera, sign for the fans, hustle, and provide the appropriate (boring) sound bytes. The media loves that. The media therefore tells us that these are "good guys", and that we should like them and cheer for them. Some of us might even buy their baseball cards!

When Bonds, Puig, Rickey, etc speak their minds, or get pissed at the media for asking the same ridiculous questions for the millionth time, the (mostly white) media tells the (mostly white) MLB fan base that these players have attitudes, or even worse, that they are "thugs."

When is the last time a white guy was called a thug?

Sure, it's not the n-word, but it's the not-so-subtle form of racism that still exists today.

I don't see what race has to do with anything. Many to most of the hobby-elites are not white. It's a ridiculous sentiment.

Cutch should cut that hair.

gmarutiak said:

Here is the problem. Race and "perceived attitudes" go hand in hand.

You rarely hear about the "attitude" of white players. When white players do display "attitude", white fans usually love it, because it shows that the players are tough and rebellious. We white fans can relate to that, because we'd like to think that we're tough and rebellious, too.

Griffey, Thomas, Gwynn, Puckett, McCutchen, etc never really showed any attitude. They usually smile for the camera, sign for the fans, hustle, and provide the appropriate (boring) sound bytes. The media loves that. The media therefore tells us that these are "good guys", and that we should like them and cheer for them. Some of us might even buy their baseball cards!

When Bonds, Puig, Rickey, etc speak their minds, or get pissed at the media for asking the same ridiculous questions for the millionth time, the (mostly white) media tells the (mostly white) MLB fan base that these players have attitudes, or even worse, that they are "thugs."

When is the last time a white guy was called a thug?

Sure, it's not the n-word, but it's the not-so-subtle form of racism that still exists today.

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There may be some meat on that bone but Cutch isn't a thug so that's a whole other conversation for the general chat forum

I know this is a McCuthen thread but to erics point The Biggest discrepancy in baseball the last couple years that had to do with race is Miguel Cabrera Vs Mike Trout in and out of cardboard!
If Mike trout had won a Triple crown the baseball world would have imploded and I don't mean in a bad way..

mlbsalltimegreats said:

I know this is a McCuthen thread but to erics point The Biggest discrepancy in baseball the last couple years that had to do with race is Miguel Cabrera Vs Mike Trout in and out of cardboard!
If Mike trout had won a Triple crown the baseball world would have imploded and I don't mean in a bad way..

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Mike Trout is 23 and has been having amazing seasons for three consecutive years. The young guys always get more hobby love. Cabrera has been a beast for a decade and has less RC stuff.

Super Mario said:

Over............rated.

It's a joke that he won the MVP.

He will NEVER win a World Series with the Pirates.

He's the best player on a mid-level team who overachieved one season. Big deal. Him and Lucroy are in the same boat. Still not as good as St. Louis

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What? Do you understand baseball? Not sure if he will ever win a WS with the Pirates but he is far from overrated and far from a single season overachiever. He is easily a top 5 position player in all of MLB and is not showing any signs of slowing that down.

WCTYSON said:

Do you understand baseball? .

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Baseball?

Never watched it.

ThoseBackPages said:

When Willie Mays and Hank Aaron begin to even APPROACH the "value" of Mickey Mantle, then we can talk about how the hobby is not biased based on skin color.

Until then you can offer all the outliners you desire, but i am not buying it.

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The prices of Mays vs. Aaron vs. Mantle is determined by race? I hope that's a joke.
What're you talking about specifically? Relics, base cards, autos?

sportscardtheory said:

I don't see what race has to do with anything. Many to most of the hobby-elites are not white. It's a ridiculous sentiment.

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This exactly. Ridiculous to play the race card in a thread like this. Although BackPages does it in plenty of threads so not really surprised.
SMDH

WCTYSON said:

What? Do you understand baseball? Not sure if he will ever win a WS with the Pirates but he is far from overrated and far from a single season overachiever. He is easily a top 5 position player in all of MLB and is not showing any signs of slowing that down.

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This. I read Super Mario's statement and figured it was just a bad troll job. Apparently not. I don't know how you can say they will never win a WS, they have a very good team. They are hardly a mid level team. He is a top 5 player position player EASILY.

Take off your damn blinders Mario.

Totally agree that race is a factor. It's not the only factor of course, but it's in there. You see it most in the vintage market (Mantle as an iconic, popular player despite sharing NYC with the superior Mays, and the minority players that sell best are the ones that are regarded as barrier-breakers - Robinson, Clemente, Ichiro).

People choose what players to root for in very subjective, personal ways, and a lot of it (especially when you are a kid) is who reminds you of yourself so that you can model your game after them.

MLB has a whiter fanbase than NFL or NBA, and there is always extra interest in finding the new American Hero. You see this a lot in prospecting too, it's one of the reasons that Kris Bryant outsells Buxton (at his peak), AddRuss (similar level prospect in same org), etc. Another example is Trout at his peak is already outselling Pujols at his peak.

Again, to pre-empt some of the straw man attacks this is sure to beget, race is ONLY ONE factor in a complex web. Yes of course there are many popular minority players, yes of course there are many unpopular white players. Race is one factor among many, but it's silly to say it's not a factor at all.

maxe0213 said:

This exactly. Ridiculous to play the race card in a thread like this. Although BackPages does it in plenty of threads so not really surprised.
SMDH

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I think it has something to do with Mantle's overall appeal, especially to Older fans, which in turn affects their prices. He was white, a Yankee (which meant the widest audience seeing him and that he made the WS almost every year) incredibly talented, hit really long HRs and seemed to good-natured. He had that corn-fed Midwestern look and attitude, which people back then were much more comfortable with. All of that together led to his immense popularity back then. Hell, Stengel said he was gonna be better than Ruth. What kid or even adult then wouldn't be a fan of His?

Yes, race was part of it, but I don't believe it's an intentional slight, just a product of how things were in the 50s, not a blanket statement of how things are now...

homerun28aa said:

The prices of Mays vs. Aaron vs. Mantle is determined by race? I hope that's a joke.
What're you talking about specifically? Relics, base cards, autos?

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Playing days, pack issued cards.

Fans like great players with good attitudes. Ted Williams, the greatest hitter of his era, was not well liked because he was irascible. Steve Carlton, a true all time great, was not loved for the same reason. Pete Rose was a very polarizing player; his nickname Charlie Hustle began as a sarcastic insult. Guys like MJ, Griffey, Shaq, Lebron, Gwynn and others show that fans love great talent and a positive image, regardless of color. Racism certainly affected players in the past, but at this point, it's not as big of an issue.

Some of the Hispanic/Caribbean players do suffer from a lack of recognition, but that is usually due to an inability to speak English. David Ortiz is black, from a Caribbean nation, and is flamboyant on the field. He is extremely popular because he can communicate with the fans and seems like a good guy. Puig has the same basic background, is also flamboyant on the field, but because he cannot communicate and doesn't seem like such a good guy, he rubs people the wrong way. The Japanese players who don't learn English also miss out on some fans in all likelihood. If a player wants to have a huge fan base, he needs to communicate with the majority of fans.

"Racism certainly affected players in the past, but at this point, it's not as big of an issue."

Then why hasn't the hobby seen a "correction" on the those players cards after all these years?

maxe0213 said:

I don't know how you can say they will never win a WS.

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Because they're NEVER going to beat the Cardinals in the playoffs.

ThoseBackPages said:

"Racism certainly affected players in the past, but at this point, it's not as big of an issue."

Then why hasn't the hobby seen a "correction" on the those players cards after all these years?

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Because the majority of the buyers of that stuff still base their decisions on how they felt about those players 50+ years ago. They connected with "The Mick" alot more then and still continue to do so since their buying is tied into the feelings they have of those days...