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Buying items listed on ebay off ebay?

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magicpapa

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2008
10,057
1,347
Discipline is a choice. Its simply consistently choosing the hard right over the easy wrong
 

chris19978

Active member
Aug 30, 2011
978
25
Discipline is a choice. Its simply consistently choosing the hard right over the easy wrong

Yes I would agree but to call someone something there not because there selling somewhere other than ebay on items listed on ebay saying there stealing or a thief is not right in my book, Those are harsh words and a big reason why I wanted to say my piece. I have sold items off ebay after listing them I would not say a lot. I listed a Jeter card Jared needed and won we could have worked out a deal off ebay but we didn't and I kept the listing up and he won but there have been times if the offer was good enough I didn't have an issue pulling an item to sell through paypal again there few a far between as most items I list on ebay as an auction I don't care for and let them ride. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. I don't feel anyone here is a thief or stealing so when I hear a person argue that they are I am going to say what I feel. Change the words up is all I ask as I don't feel what he is calling people is the nice thing to say. I am sure everyone of us has broken ebay policy I am guilty of it mostly on the buying aspect than selling as I will ask a member if he would take so much money as a Buy It Now and sometimes they say yes but through paypal. I want the card and don't have an issue buying through paypal if it will get me the card I want. I don't consider that seller a thief for wanting to maximize his profit on a card he wants to sell and if I get it our transaction is complete.
 

highphat

Active member
Aug 18, 2008
1,185
2
Should you be called a thief if you send Paypal as gift and get a card in return? I think there are quite a few people here who do that as well.
 

chris19978

Active member
Aug 30, 2011
978
25
I will make another point so I sold and got paid $1500.00 through ebay and a card that sold for $2000.00 that was unpaid my seller fees are still $350.00 until he gets his 10 days to respond so I could be paying them $200.00 additional dollars for an item that didn't sell. Is it right for ebay to put the fees on the invoice before the item is paid for. So you are saying they are stealing from me even if it's for a short time. I don't consider it stealing but others might.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Freedom Card Board mobile app
 

jrinne

New member
Sep 25, 2008
1,890
0
Not sure if a lot of you are aware of this but this is done on a daily basis by companies all over the world. Cutting the middle man out to avoid extra cost is done all the time. I'm in purchasing and I do this everyday. Contracting a truck to pick up a load via a broker and getting the trucking companies information when they drop off, having items drop shipped to get the address it comes from to buy direct instead of going with a vendor. Our company does it all the time and companies do it to us all the time. None of this is new and its a common practice in the business world.
 
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mrdallas

Active member
Mar 20, 2013
1,414
0
Roseville CA
Yes I would agree but to call someone something there not because there selling somewhere other than ebay on items listed on ebay saying there stealing or a thief is not right in my book, Those are harsh words and a big reason why I wanted to say my piece. I have sold items off ebay after listing them I would not say a lot. I listed a Jeter card Jared needed and won we could have worked out a deal off ebay but we didn't and I kept the listing up and he won but there have been times if the offer was good enough I didn't have an issue pulling an item to sell through paypal again there few a far between as most items I list on ebay as an auction I don't care for and let them ride. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. I don't feel anyone here is a thief or stealing so when I hear a person argue that they are I am going to say what I feel. Change the words up is all I ask as I don't feel what he is calling people is the nice thing to say. I am sure everyone of us has broken ebay policy I am guilty of it mostly on the buying aspect than selling as I will ask a member if he would take so much money as a Buy It Now and sometimes they say yes but through paypal. I want the card and don't have an issue buying through paypal if it will get me the card I want. I don't consider that seller a thief for wanting to maximize his profit on a card he wants to sell and if I get it our transaction is complete.

I would agree that the choice of words is what is getting people on this side of the fence a bit defensive.
 

Dilferules

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
1,948
1,746
Auburn, WA
If they were stealing they would be in jail and ebay is paid a fee I give them $20.00 a month plus final value fee of items sold so that $20.00 is to show what I have for sale if I decide to sell off ebay it's my opinion and I have already paid them to list items I am still charged if I sell 0 items or 250 items on my ebay store. You will lose this argument every time as ebay policy is not a law so nothing has been broken to be put in jail so no one has stolen anything from ebay as they used their service for their advantage if it means selling though them or using them to draw attention to sell off ebay for a price both the buyer and seller can agree on. If I didn't know any better you work for ebay so you will say things like people are stealing or thieves instead of people are breaking ebay policy as it seems more harsh and wrong if you use words like that. I am sure I can contact my brother who is a lawyer and get his opinion if it's considered stealing and he will laugh at you. Please tell me how many people went to jail listing items on ebay and then selling them off ebay I will tell you none so they didn't break any laws only ebay policy at best.

I really don't care if your brother laughs at me. In my opinion it's stealing, get over it. Saying that you paid listing fees for a million other items does not justify ripping off an FVF for one item to me. If it justifies it for you, then good for you.

Yes I would agree but to call someone something there not because there selling somewhere other than ebay on items listed on ebay saying there stealing or a thief is not right in my book, Those are harsh words and a big reason why I wanted to say my piece. I have sold items off ebay after listing them I would not say a lot. I listed a Jeter card Jared needed and won we could have worked out a deal off ebay but we didn't and I kept the listing up and he won but there have been times if the offer was good enough I didn't have an issue pulling an item to sell through paypal again there few a far between as most items I list on ebay as an auction I don't care for and let them ride. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. I don't feel anyone here is a thief or stealing so when I hear a person argue that they are I am going to say what I feel. Change the words up is all I ask as I don't feel what he is calling people is the nice thing to say. I am sure everyone of us has broken ebay policy I am guilty of it mostly on the buying aspect than selling as I will ask a member if he would take so much money as a Buy It Now and sometimes they say yes but through paypal. I want the card and don't have an issue buying through paypal if it will get me the card I want. I don't consider that seller a thief for wanting to maximize his profit on a card he wants to sell and if I get it our transaction is complete.

Please go back and read my posts and find where I called anybody a thief. I said the act of cutting ebay out of their FVF was stealing. You're putting harsher words than I have said in my mouth. Just because somebody steals once in a while does not brand them as a "thief" to me. That's a harsher word that I will say when I see fit, not when somebody puts it in my mouth.

Should you be called a thief if you send Paypal as gift and get a card in return? I think there are quite a few people here who do that as well.

That's a similar form of stealing to me. You're not paying Paypal for their services used in a transaction. I've done it a few times on message boards when sellers requested it. I feel bad about doing it and know that it's wrong, and I did it anyway. I could try to justify it to myself by saying that the seller is really the one doing the wrong thing, but I participated and I knew it was wrong so there is no justification. That's the whole point of this...nobody's a perfect angel and you may as well just come out and say "I know it was wrong but I did it to make more money/make the sale so I don't give a damn" rather than acting like what you did was not totally ripping ebay off for services they performed.

I will make another point so I sold and got paid $1500.00 through ebay and a card that sold for $2000.00 that was unpaid my seller fees are still $350.00 until he gets his 10 days to respond so I could be paying them $200.00 additional dollars for an item that didn't sell. Is it right for ebay to put the fees on the invoice before the item is paid for. So you are saying they are stealing from me even if it's for a short time. I don't consider it stealing but others might.

So if I'm following right, you're talking about ebay charging you FVF immediately for a sale, then the buyer never pays, and ebay refunds the FVF to you. That's not stealing in any way, it's like giving a refund for a defective product, or in this case it was a defective buyer. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your example but it doesn't seem like that could even remotely be considered stealing.

Not sure if a lot of you are aware of this but this is done on a daily basis by companies all over the world. Cutting the middle man out to avoid extra cost is done all the time. I'm in purchasing and I do this everyday. Contracting a truck to pick up a load via a broker and getting the trucking companies information when they drop off, having items drop shipped to get the address it comes from to buy direct instead of going with a vendor. Our company does it all the time and companies do it to us all the time. None of this is new and its a common practice in the business world.

If I'm understanding this example correctly it would be like buying a card from a seller on ebay, then working directly with the seller to buy other cards you might like, cutting out the ebay middleman. I have discussed this type of thing before but it may have been in the other thread...there's nothing wrong with that. You may have "met" the seller through ebay but that does not give ebay the right to take a cut on future transactions that they have nothing to do with. You paid the broker for the service they provided when you used them, then dealt directly with other parties in the future.
 

mrdallas

Active member
Mar 20, 2013
1,414
0
Roseville CA
"Please go back and read my posts and find where I called anybody a thief. I said the act of cutting ebay out of their FVF was stealing"

Dilferrules, I respect your opinion on this and you have every right to it, this discussion has been a good one IMO and I think different opinions gives more insight into peoples feeling and promotes discussion. But the above statement is no different than calling someone who does this a Thief....
 

Dilferules

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
1,948
1,746
Auburn, WA
But the above statement is no different than calling someone who does this a Thief....

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I just don't like people putting more inflammatory statements in my mouth than what I actually said...the things I'm actually saying seem to be disliked enough on their own by most people.
 

chris19978

Active member
Aug 30, 2011
978
25
"Dilferules"
"By this logic it's okay to shoplift from Wal-Mart because they don't pay their workers much and sell products made in questionable circumstances in China?"


Called it like shoplifting from Walmart again all items you list you own so how can you steal when you own it?

"Dilferules"

"How would using a service and not paying for it not be acrime? Please answer that. I have no idea why ebay doesn't take it to court. I could speculate that their bottom line would be more hurt by banning a lot ofsellers than the few bucks here and there they'd get back from the FVF's. Itd oesn't make it right to do it."

It can’t be a crime as you own it so all they can do is kick you off ebay and if they did that to everyone who sells of ebay every once in awhile they would lose more as less people to bid on items so less final value fees on items sold.

"Dilferules"

"You are using a service and not paying for it. I guess I'mjust a total idiot for believing that's stealing. Stupid me actually paying forstuff when I can get away with not doing it. BRB gotta find some people to partner up with on my Netflix and mlb.tv subscriptions."

You again use something that has nothing to do with what this is about Netflix provides a service to watch and view movies and has a monthly price for it. Ebay will milk every penny it can on items that sell on their website if there was a set price or a monthly fee then more people would not skip the middleman and they would get a lot more sales. No matter what you say if you say someone is stealing something you are calling them a thief. I know someone mentioned this it might have not been you but they both have the same meaning

Dictionary.com
Stealing=to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force
Thief=a person who steals something from another

So you’re saying the same thing and I am sure you would not like to be called either name as no one else would like it. Selling an item you own no matter if you had it listed on ebay and ended it to sell another way doesn’t warrant stealing because you decided to sell elsewhere. I am sure you’re not going to change your opinion and neither will I or anyone else who feel they can sell an item they own anyway they want to even if they use ebay to promote the item.
 
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Dilferules

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
1,948
1,746
Auburn, WA
"Dilferules"
"By this logic it's okay to shoplift from Wal-Mart because they don't pay their workers much and sell products made in questionable circumstances in China?"


Called it like shoplifting from Walmart again all items you list you own so how can you steal when you own it?

"Dilferules"

"How would using a service and not paying for it not be acrime? Please answer that. I have no idea why ebay doesn't take it to court. I could speculate that their bottom line would be more hurt by banning a lot ofsellers than the few bucks here and there they'd get back from the FVF's. Itd oesn't make it right to do it."

It can’t be a crime as you own it so all they can do is kick you off ebay and if they did that to everyone who sells of ebay every once in awhile they would lose more as less people to bid on items so less final value fees on items sold.

"Dilferules"

"You are using a service and not paying for it. I guess I'mjust a total idiot for believing that's stealing. Stupid me actually paying forstuff when I can get away with not doing it. BRB gotta find some people to partner up with on my Netflix and mlb.tv subscriptions."

You again use something that has nothing to do with what this is about Netflix provides a service to watch and view movies and has a monthly price for it. Ebay will milk every penny it can on items that sell on their website if there was a set price or a monthly fee then more people would not skip the middleman and they would get a lot more sales. No matter what you say if you say someone is stealing something you are calling them a thief. I know someone mentioned this it might have not been you but they both have the same meaning

Dictionary.com
Stealing=to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force
Thief=a person who steals something from another

So you’re saying the same thing and I am sure you would not like to be called either name as no one else would like it. Selling an item you own no matter if you had it listed on ebay and ended it to sell another way doesn’t warrant stealing because you decided to sell elsewhere. I am sure you’re not going to change your opinion and neither will I or anyone else who feel they can sell an item they own anyway they want to even if they use ebay to promote the item.


I'll address the points separately:

1. The Wal-Mart example was given in response to somebody else who I felt was attempting to go down the direction that it's okay to do this because ebay is an evil company that has had lawsuits filed against it. I was trying to make the point that a company being bad is not justification to steal from them. I appreciate the arguments being made that avoiding FVF isn't stealing (even if I don't agree with them), but pointing out examples of lawsuits filed against ebay, as that person did, is NOT an argument that avoiding FVF shouldn't be called stealing. It's just trying to justify doing something you know you shouldn't do.

2. "It can't be a crime because you own it" illustrates that I think a lot of people are not receptive to the idea that you can steal a service and it's really outside the box. I never claimed a card-stealing crime. I claimed that by using ebay's services to find a buyer for your card then ending the listing early and taking it off ebay, not paying the agreed-upon price (FVF) for services ebay has provided, you have stolen the service that ebay provided. As for the second point in this quote, I did mention in one post that it's likely ebay does not enforce this issue more heavily because losing an FVF here and there may cost them less than losing a bunch of sellers after banning them and/or suing them for the small amounts of money. ebay's choice of how heavily they enforce it does not change the agreement you enter into when you list an item for sale on their website, and not paying them the amount agreed upon is stealing.

3. With the Netflix example it really seems like the point you are making is that if ebay's fees were more reasonable in your opinion, you would be less likely to avoid FVF's. That's just a justification for avoiding FVF's, not any type of argument why avoiding them is any less stealing than stealing Netflix. And I don't want to get into a whole Netflix argument because I don't know what their terms are regarding sharing accounts. It was just an example of stealing a service.

4. Saying that the action of avoiding FVF's is stealing is making a statement about an action. Calling somebody a thief is personally insulting them. I am merely discussing the act of avoiding FVF's. It seems like everybody else wants to put words in my mouth to turn this into a personal attack thread, when all I am doing is discussing the act of avoiding an FVF by selling an item off ebay. If you want to extrapolate my feelings on that act and take it personally, there's not really anything I can do about that. Other than not calling it stealing, which I'm not going to do because I'm not going to lie about what I believe.

I do appreciate your point about why people are taking it so personally, and I knew that would happen, but in the old thread I just wanted to bring up a counterpoint because it seems like everybody thought there was nothing wrong with avoiding FVF's. The only person arguing the other side was a known troll that has been suspended from this and other websites numerous times. I wanted to show that it wasn't just a troll that felt that way about FVF avoidance.

EDIT: I just realized on point number 2 I think your argument is that it's your card, ebay can't tell you where or how to sell it. That's true, they can't...but when they've procided the service of connecting you with the buyer they are owed the money you agreed to pay when listing the card, the FVF.
 
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sportscardtheory

Active member
Aug 16, 2008
8,461
2
Buffalo, New York
My point in bringing that up was I have yet to see you slam ebay for literally stealing from sellers, yet you are slamming sellers for "stealing" from ebay, when they aren't. It wasn't a validation for selling off ebay, it was me calling you out for being hypocritical.
 
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sportscardtheory

Active member
Aug 16, 2008
8,461
2
Buffalo, New York
Unless a transaction actually happens on ebay, a listing fee is the only funds they have any right to. They don't own a "possibility" of a transaction. When you end a listing, ebay is immediately taken out of the equation and they no longer have rights to any sale money from your property. You essentially ended your agreement. No laws were broken. It's not theft. It's not stealing. It's an end to an agreement and what happens to your property after that is none of their business.
 

Dilferules

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
1,948
1,746
Auburn, WA
My point in bringing that up was I have yet to see you slam ebay for literally stealing from sellers, yet you are slamming sellers for "stealing" from ebay, when they aren't. It wasn't a validation for selling off ebay, it was me calling you out for hypocrisy.

This thread is not discussing ebay stealing from people, it's discussing people avoiding FVF's by selling off ebay and whether that is "stealing", merely unethical or immoral, or there's nothing wrong with it at all. Why would I bring up whether or not ebay steals from people, that's totally irrelevant to the issue being discussed. If somebody wants to create a "slam ebay" thread it'd probably be a pretty interesting read.
 

sportscardtheory

Active member
Aug 16, 2008
8,461
2
Buffalo, New York
This thread is not discussing ebay stealing from people, it's discussing people avoiding FVF's by selling off ebay and whether that is "stealing", merely unethical or immoral, or there's nothing wrong with it at all. Why would I bring up whether or not ebay steals from people, that's totally irrelevant to the issue being discussed. If somebody wants to create a "slam ebay" thread it'd probably be a pretty interesting read.

It's not relevant that ebay regularly steals from sellers by hiding their listings that they paid to have seen? We are talking about ebay and ebay sellers here. It's not as though I brought up another company. Of course it's relevant. ebay steals from sellers. Why don't you care?
 

Dilferules

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
1,948
1,746
Auburn, WA
Unless a transaction actually happens on ebay, a listing fee is the only funds they have any right to. They don't own a "possibility" of a transaction. When you end a listing, ebay is immediately taken out of the equation and they no longer have rights to any sale money from your property. You essentially ended your agreement. No laws were broken. It's not theft. It's not stealing. It's an end to an agreement and what happens to your property after that is none of their business.

I disagree. When you list an item on ebay you are agreeing to use their service and pay their price. Part of that price is an FVF if they find you a buyer, and their interpretation of "finding you a buyer" is pretty clear from their terms of service that I linked to in a couple of different posts. You agreed to ebay's rules of payment when you listed the item, not sportscardtheory's rules. Not paying the price you agreed upon is stealing in my book. I understand your point of view about not owing them anything if you end the auction, but from my point of view it's just trying to find a way to wrangle out of paying money that you truly owe.
 

Dilferules

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
1,948
1,746
Auburn, WA
It's not relevant that ebay regularly steals from sellers by hiding their listings that they paid to have seen? We are talking about ebay and ebay sellers here. It's not as though I brought up another company. Of course it's relevant. ebay steals from sellers. Why don't you care?

Because what difference does it make, other than to justify stealing from them and make yourself feel better? I'm not talking about ebay's merits as a company or any other situation at all other than a seller avoiding FVF's.

If there's a law you don't like do you argue about why it's wrong, or do you argue about all the other bad things the government does? Because at some point it becomes you arguing against the government (or ebay in this case) and not the specific thing we're talking about.
 

sportscardtheory

Active member
Aug 16, 2008
8,461
2
Buffalo, New York
Because what difference does it make, other than to justify stealing from them and make yourself feel better? I'm not talking about ebay's merits as a company or any other situation at all other than a seller avoiding FVF's.

If there's a law you don't like do you argue about why it's wrong, or do you argue about all the other bad things the government does? Because at some point it becomes you arguing against the government (or ebay in this case) and not the specific thing we're talking about.

An objective take would be 'that's horrible that they do that to sellers'. Yours is just to completely ignore it and carry-on and on about sellers ending items being "stealing". You are being completely biased and I believe it hurts and invalidates your arguments. Why should anyone care about your opinion on sellers figuratively "stealing" from ebay when you seemingly couldn't care less about ebay literally stealing from sellers.
 

Dilferules

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
1,948
1,746
Auburn, WA
An objective take would be 'that's horrible that they do that to sellers'. Yours is just to completely ignore it and carry-on and on about sellers ending items being "stealing". You are being completely biased and I believe it hurts and invalidates your arguments. Why should anyone care about your opinion on sellers figuratively "stealing" from ebay when you seemingly couldn't care less about ebay literally stealing from sellers.

Because the topic is specifically whether sellers ending an item early to avoid FVF is stealing, which has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about. You are talking about something completely outside the specific issue to try to divert this into an emotional argument against big bad ebay, and by not taking the bait I'm "biased". There's no bias because those lawsuits have ZERO to do with whether or not this is stealing, and I'm not nor have I ever in these threads made an argument for or against ebay as a whole.
 

sportscardtheory

Active member
Aug 16, 2008
8,461
2
Buffalo, New York
Because the topic is specifically whether sellers ending an item early to avoid FVF is stealing, which has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about. You are talking about something completely outside the specific issue to try to divert this into an emotional argument against big bad ebay, and by not taking the bait I'm "biased". There's no bias because those lawsuits have ZERO to do with whether or not this is stealing, and I'm not nor have I ever in these threads made an argument for or against ebay as a whole.

Your opinion on this particular subject is pretty meaningless when you can't even objectively discuss ebay.
 

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