Is Leaf/Brian Gray going to get Johnny Manziel kicked out of NCAA football

jbhofmann · Aug 30, 2013

The argument wasn't about stats.

Andrew Luck was widely considered the best QB prospect since John Elway. He didn't play in the SEC and never put up gawdy Manziel numbers. Because numbers don't matter.

Ryan Tannehill was a WR at TAMU before becoming an NFL 1st rounder.

Projectable talent and tools are what makes a prospect, not numbers.

All The Hype · Aug 30, 2013

predatorkj said:
I'm not saying that they don't. My personal experience is I am being told by people who have played football at big schools that it's hard to play football and really focus on it, and then still have the time to focus on school. That's all. As far as the tutoring sessions, yeah sure, the whole reason for that is because these guys don't have a lot of time to fully study the material. Otherwise, would they all need the tutoring? As for the other crud you mentioned, it's an overpriced product to begin with.

I'm really not up to debating this any more. I think we all went back and forth a few years ago in a similar thread. And nothing got solved. Nothing overcomes the fact that these guys earn the school millions of dollars and can't so much as have a guy buy them a hamburger for signing an autograph for them. You can bring the title 9 stuff up. You can say other athletes go to class. Anyone here can say what they personally did or didn't do during their college years. None of it can sway that point. You also cannot say that giving someone a full ride equates to the automatic ability to take full advantage of it. Not when you turn right back around and take all that time out of their schedule for practice, film study, team meetings, media crap, and travel. And oh, hope you have time to go to good classes and get a good degree in something other than business management. The other arguments I have heard is it would make some schools go broke. Uh, not with the tuition they overcharge people for. I've also heard that it's not fair to someone playing another lower profit sport. That's like saying just because I work at a fast food place, I should earn just as much as someone who is an engineer. Uh, no. You earn based upon your worth. If as a fast food employee, you earn the company $150 a day, why should you get paid like an engineer who earns the company millions annually?

There just isn't anything that can be said that would make this issue go away. Whatever the school is providing to these kids pales in comparison to what they get out of the student when it comes to football. And nobody should have the control to tell you that you can or cannot sign autos for money. While they sit there and sell your jersey's behind your back.

As a former college athlete, I'll just start by saying you're making a lot of generalizations, and frankly, some completely ignorant claims.

It's not the school's fault that players don't take advantage of a free education. I won't sit here and lecture, but just to give you a first-hand counterexample to what you're trying to generalize, I played TWO sports as a freshman and still had a 3.6 GPA in mostly Economics classes. I still had a social life as well. This included weekends where we'd leave Thursday and not get back sometimes until 3am Monday morning and have to go to class at 8am. All it takes is a little responsibility and discipline, the problem is simply that many of the athletes don't have the discipline to focus on more than just their sport. Again, not the school's fault...it doesn't make the free education that has been GIVEN to them any less valuable; it simply means they're not taking full advantage.

I could make 50 other points about this right now, but honestly I don't feel like debating. Just had to chime in with some personal experience because many of your assumptions are inaccurate.

notjomommasclint · Aug 30, 2013

As a prospect leaf was #2 to manning.. Johnny won't be a first round pick.

I'm not ignoring Johnny's numbers or gifts but Ryan leafs skill set was compared to Dan Marino.. Johnny will be compared to? Eric crouch?

sportscardtheory · Aug 31, 2013

I hope everyone understands that I wasn't directly comparing Manziel's football ability to Ryan Leaf's. My point was that although both were gifted by the football gods, they are both head cases.

predatorkj · Aug 31, 2013

All The Hype said:
As a former college athlete, I'll just start by saying you're making a lot of generalizations, and frankly, some completely ignorant claims.

It's not the school's fault that players don't take advantage of a free education. I won't sit here and lecture, but just to give you a first-hand counterexample to what you're trying to generalize, I played TWO sports as a freshman and still had a 3.6 GPA in mostly Economics classes. I still had a social life as well. This included weekends where we'd leave Thursday and not get back sometimes until 3am Monday morning and have to go to class at 8am. All it takes is a little responsibility and discipline, the problem is simply that many of the athletes don't have the discipline to focus on more than just their sport. Again, not the school's fault...it doesn't make the free education that has been GIVEN to them any less valuable; it simply means they're not taking full advantage.

I could make 50 other points about this right now, but honestly I don't feel like debating. Just had to chime in with some personal experience because many of your assumptions are inaccurate.

Uh...no they are not. You got a 3.6 in economics classes. No offense as I'm not some genius but that's not anything prestigious. Not that I doubt you're sharp. But I'm sure those classes would have been easier if you had more time to put into them no? And economics? Let me guess? You have some really awesome job paying a million bucks a year right? Sure. Hey, I work full time and go to school for a medical program(that's also not going to make me a million a year). It's no cake walk and my grades are still great but while most people are sound asleep, I force myself to stay up. But in no way or form am I physically challenged like athletes are so I can simply imagine them not coming home and even being able to stay awake to study. Plus work doesn't give me a playbook to study. And some of these "generalizations and ignorant claims" you say I make, are coming from people playing D1 sports. Not sure where you played or how much they cared. Hell, maybe you went to Florida, Bama, or USC and you were just some hardcore person. Great. Not everyone can operate on your level. IMHO, the classes I take are hard but not impossible to pass with an A. Yet people in the same classes have no idea how I manage to work and go to school. So you assume all athletes are super smart, and all the material comes to them naturally? They could just go and take a really hard class because it's easy for them and everyone else.

To me, it seems you are trying to say you are the norm(even though you seem to be the exception, though exception to what I am not sure). And you are using an economics degree(or do you have one) to prove it. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say other than the fact that you can take economics classes and still play sports. To me that means squat. I'm glad you got an education and who knows...you might make a million a year. If so, great. But you are not necessarily the norm nor does that negate the fact that you are still relegated to specific classes that the sports schedule and your time allow. So I suppose I will remain ignorant.

jbhofmann · Aug 31, 2013

My roommate successfully kept a 4.0 in PHYSICS while playing football and the D1 level.

That pretty much sums up that argument.

Leaf · Aug 31, 2013

jbhofmann said:
The argument wasn't about stats.

Andrew Luck was widely considered the best QB prospect since John Elway. He didn't play in the SEC and never put up gawdy Manziel numbers. Because numbers don't matter.

Ryan Tannehill was a WR at TAMU before becoming an NFL 1st rounder.

Projectable talent and tools are what makes a prospect, not numbers.

Of course its not,.... your molding the argument to support your position....

1> Draft position means nothing...
Joe Montana drafted 82nd
Johnny Unitas drafted 102nd
Tom Brady drafted 199th
Bart Starr drafted 199th
Akili Smith 3rd
Daunte Culpepper 11th
Ryan Leaf 2nd
Jamarcus Russell 1st

2> I concede no single stat,award,win or element makes a guy a great prospect.....

With that being said, which of these would you not agree with in assessing Manziel's talent:
(a) Johnny put up huge numbers
(b) won the heisman
(c) kicked Alabamas buttt
(d) took a good team and made them a contender

Player comparisons:
(1) Manziel and Ryan Leaf's passing stats are reasonably similar
(2) Manziel played one season, Ryan Leaf played three seasons
(3) Manziel Rushed for 1410 yards, Leaf MINUS 171 yards
(4) Ryan Leaf had success in terms of taking his 1997 conference title game
(5) Manziel beat a team considered unbeatable on the way to winning the Heisman
(6) BOTH PLAYERS HAVE MADE SHAKY CHOICES

Listen, You dont have to like Johnny (or respect his choices), BUT to say he is not an elite prospect is not supported by facts. If people knew Ryan Leaf was a screwup, he woulda been a MUCH lower pick.
Will johnny slip to 2nd or 3rd due to his "choices"? Hell, teams were scared to draft Randy Moss for God's sake! Will Johnny Fall? Maybe.... but I dont think so...

At the end of the day, this season will be critical in assessing what Johnny really has under the hood.... IF he enjoys huge sucess this year (even under the scrutiny), that will speak volumes...

Let's pick this discussion up after the season... BG

deceptikon1978 · Aug 31, 2013

Leaf said:
Manziel is a winner.. Something Ryan Leaf never showed. Manziel easily a better prospect than Ryan Leaf..

There is your original statement. Now you are going in all different directions.

How about you pick up this discussion when there is serious talk about Manziel being the number one pick in the NFL Draft. Ryan Leaf could have easily been the number one pick. Manziel won't sniff the first round.

Bob Loblaw · Aug 31, 2013

Leaf said:
Jeff,
I gotta tell you something.. You are like a horse with blinders.. You may run well, but you have no clue what is really going on around you ..#doesntlistentalkstrashwithnoknowledgeofanythingjusthisimagination

I have no idea as to what your point was. I was just having some fun with wordplay.

So, I noticed that in a twitter conversation with you, me, and Mark formerly from Topps, you declared an olive branch with Panini, but I see you're still embroiled with copyright/trademark issues over Leaf Limited & Prism. Whasupwitdat?

nappyd · Aug 31, 2013

Leaf said:
Manziel is a winner.. Something Ryan Leaf never showed. Manziel easily a better prospect than Ryan Leaf..

Yeah surrounded with nfl talent he is. But people say the same about Alabama quarterbacks, like the one with the ****** chest tattoo.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Freedom Card Board mobile app

Leaf · Aug 31, 2013

deceptikon1978 said:
There is your original statement. Now you are going in all different directions.

How about you pick up this discussion when there is serious talk about Manziel being the number one pick in the NFL Draft. Ryan Leaf could have easily been the number one pick. Manziel won't sniff the first round.

Why does pick matter? Draft position is all a matter of who is available in the draft, what specific teams need and relies on assessments of people who can and do make mistakes.

I am stating here that Manziel is a better prospect than Ryan Leaf. After one year, he is a comparable player (and with rushing element, I consider superior). His ceiling is much higher than Leaf (whose stature as a prospect was as much based ok him as a prototypical physical specimen as anything else)...

Bg

Ps- you assume Johnny is not a 1st round selection and I think he very well may be

deceptikon1978 · Aug 31, 2013

Leaf said:
Why does pick matter? Draft position is all a matter of who is available in the draft, what specific teams need and relies on assessments of people who can and do make mistakes.

I am simply talking about who is a better NFL prospect. Manning was not the clear cut #1 pick in 1998, Leaf could have easily been #1 . In fact, if I remember correctly, most of the Colts staff actually wanted Leaf.

I never see Manziel projected as a #1 pick. Ever. He may very well get drafted and have a HOF NFL career. But that doesn't mean he is a better NFL prospect than Ryan Leaf was.

Tom Brady is a better NFL QB than Ryan Leaf. But that doesn't make him a better NFL prospect than Leaf was.

Let's take Ryan Leaf out of the mix because his pathetic career and choices are clouding vision here. Is Manziel a better prospect than Peyton Manning? Of course not.

predatorkj · Aug 31, 2013

jbhofmann said:
My roommate successfully kept a 4.0 in PHYSICS while playing football and the D1 level.

That pretty much sums up that argument.

Now that is impressive and actually throws a pretty good punch at my argument. But could this be kept up? Did he graduate with a degree in a similar field?

All I was trying to get at is if you give a guy a free ride, they should have the same exact chance to take whatever they wish as any other college student does.

jbhofmann · Aug 31, 2013

[MENTION=1948]Leaf[/MENTION]

You realize that a simple: "yeah you are right would suffice"?

If you asked 30 NFL GMs I'd say that 30 would have had Leaf higher than Manziel as a pro prospect.

And this is coming from a guy that loves watching JFF.

jbhofmann · Aug 31, 2013

predatorkj said:
Now that is impressive and actually throws a pretty good punch at my argument. But could this be kept up? Did he graduate with a degree in a similar field?

All I was trying to get at is if you give a guy a free ride, they should have the same exact chance to take whatever they wish as any other college student does.

Yes he graduated early. He was actually working on his masters while we still played.

He currently is a teacher at a prestigious prep school in Tennessee.

predatorkj · Aug 31, 2013

jbhofmann said:
Yes he graduated early. He was actually working on his masters while we still played.

He currently is a teacher at a prestigious prep school in Tennessee.

Very cool. As long as these players are given the chance everyone else has, then I can agree the education is valuable.

But we are still left with the issue of the NCAA telling them they can't sign autographs for money which is dumb. Local paper had a piece by Jerome Solomon(whom I rarely agree with) that highlighted just how stupid this is. Manziel and J. David Crow signed helmets that were auctioned off by the school and purchased by boosters to raise some $80,000. Plus they sat at a table during a luncheon that people paid a fortune to attend and sit with them to raise money for A&M. How is that not lopsided?

Leaf · Aug 31, 2013

jbhofmann said:
[MENTION=1948]Leaf[/MENTION]

You realize that a simple: "yeah you are right would suffice"?

If you asked 30 NFL GMs I'd say that 30 would have had Leaf higher than Manziel as a pro prospect.

And this is coming from a guy that loves watching JFF.

Don't be so sure..

goldenegg1 · Aug 31, 2013

The biggest difference between Manziel and Leaf, is that Leaf didn't become a huge ****** bag until after he graduated from college and got drafted, Johnny is a huge ****** bag now.

Leaf · Aug 31, 2013

goldenegg1 said:
The biggest difference between Manziel and Leaf, is that Leaf didn't become a huge ****** bag until after he graduated from college and got drafted, Johnny is a huge ****** bag now.

Touché

matfanofold · Aug 31, 2013

I assume most would rather have the ******'ness fleshed out while still a kid in college, rather than carrying it over in to the NFL and adulthood, no?

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