Derek Jeter's season is over

jbhofmann · Sep 12, 2013

sportscardtheory said:
Since when do 1st ballot HOFers all have to be on the top-ten all-time players list. I don't see the Larkin comparison. He has FAR more everything statistically... that and 5 rings.

FAR (your word)?

The 162 AVG I'm looking at, looks almost identical. That's without Larkin lapping Jeter in the field.

Jeter is a great player that was lucky enough to be drafted by the Yankees and win 5 rings. It's ok he's not an immortal great. I'm sure he's fine with a seat next to Larkin.

matfanofold · Sep 12, 2013

sportscardtheory said:
Yeah, but he's not a good fielder, he didn't hit 500+ homeruns and he's not one of the top-5 greatest players of all-time, sooo...

At first glance I thought you were serious and felt my head start to vibrate.

matfanofold · Sep 12, 2013

jbhofmann said:
FAR (your word)?

The 162 AVG I'm looking at, looks almost identical. That's without Larkin lapping Jeter in the field.

Jeter is a great player that was lucky enough to be drafted by the Yankees and win 5 rings. It's ok he's not an immortal great. I'm sure he's fine with a seat next to Larkin.

You are making the mistake of thinking you can calculate a players worth using a abacus alone. So, to that end even you must concede Jeter was simply a better hitter, had more power even. Having said that he was 2 times the run producer Larkin was. Both with 19 years and Jeter had a BA 20 points higher, 600 more Runs, 300 more RBI, 1000 more hits, a higher OBP, 1200 more TB's, all in the same 19 year span respectively. Granted Larkin was on another level with regards to defense but Jeter was no slouch and had a flair for making the clutch plays when it mattered. Add to the offensive superiority of Jeter over Larkin all the championships and popularity and face of the game status Jeter earned over the years, then surely even you can concede as to why the comparison with regards to HOF worth you contend is laughable.

sportscardtheory · Sep 12, 2013

matfanofold said:
You are making the mistake of thinking you can calculate a players worth using a abacus alone. So, to that end even you must concede Jeter was simply a better hitter, had more power even. Having said that he was 2 times the run producer Larkin was. Both with 19 years and Jeter had a BA 20 points higher, 600 more Runs, 300 more RBI, 1000 more hits, a higher OBP, 1200 more TB's, all in the same 19 year span respectively. Granted Larkin was on another level with regards to defense but Jeter was no slouch and had a flair for making the clutch plays when it mattered. Add to the offensive superiority of Jeter over Larkin all the championships and popularity and face of the game status Jeter earned over the years, then surely even you can concede as to why the comparison with regards to HOF worth you contend is laughable.

Jeter is so ahead of Larkin offensively, you shouldn't even have to point out the obvious. It's a laughable comparison, IMO. Of course Larkin was better defensively, but no one in their right mind would even have to think about taking Jeter over Larkin.

jbhofmann · Sep 12, 2013

matfanofold said:
You are making the mistake of thinking you can calculate a players worth using a abacus alone. So, to that end even you must concede Jeter was simply a better hitter, had more power even. Having said that he was 2 times the run producer Larkin was. Both with 19 years and Jeter had a BA 20 points higher, 600 more Runs, 300 more RBI, 1000 more hits, a higher OBP, 1200 more TB's, all in the same 19 year span respectively. Granted Larkin was on another level with regards to defense but Jeter was no slouch and had a flair for making the clutch plays when it mattered. Add to the offensive superiority of Jeter over Larkin all the championships and popularity and face of the game status Jeter earned over the years, then surely even you can concede as to why the comparison with regards to HOF worth you contend is laughable.

Check the number of plate appearances Jeter had. He played on superior teams (with a DH) that allowed him to gain MLB leading plate appearances year after year and to his credit stayed healthy.

The face of MLB that you claim is true, because he was the captain of the Yankees. It was my point that was conveyed pages ago that Jeter benefited from his luck of being drafted to the most famous sports franchise in the world.

It's not a knock to be on Larkin's level. I think he's one of the most underrated players of my lifetime and just as great of a leader on and off the field as Jeter was.

But hey what's my laughable opinion worth?

zach · Sep 12, 2013

While I believe the Jeter lovers build him up TOO much the haters knock him down just as much.

The guy is worthy of 1st ballot HOF.

hive17 · Sep 12, 2013

Look, it's still called the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Stats; people vote on who should go in. If you want to start using WAR or UZR as a pro/con Jeter argument, you're missing the point of the HoF. If stats were important, then we'd just all set a standard where a player has to achieve some decided upon WAR number or home-run number, or WHIP, or UZR, and then they are just "in" the HoF. But that would be stupid and would take all the feeling an emotion out of the game and the process. I'm not trying to get too "Field of Dreams" on you here, but I think my point is valid. We go thru this same XXXX every year with the MVP votes.

matfanofold · Sep 12, 2013

sportscardtheory said:
Jeter is so ahead of Larkin offensively, you shouldn't even have to point out the obvious. It's a laughable comparison, IMO. Of course Larkin was better defensively, but no one in their right mind would even have to think about taking Jeter over Larkin.

Mind you, I have no horse in this race at all! I am by no means a Yankee or a Jeter Fan. And I have all the respect in the world for a player like Larkin. However, 20 years from now people will still talk and remember about what Jeter gave and left for the game of baseball. They will talk about his team leadership and championship teams, they will admire his career milestones and remember his postseason heroics. His 'face of the game' persona will survive long after his presence is gone. Larkin on the other hand is already all but forgotten, and 20 years from now he will be as [MENTION=3164]jbhofmann[/MENTION] says in the "Larkin wing and their ain't nothing wrong with that"...

jbhofmann · Sep 12, 2013

zach said:
While I believe the Jeter lovers build him up TOO much the haters knock him down just as much.

The guy is worthy of 1st ballot HOF.

Truth.

matfanofold · Sep 12, 2013

jbhofmann said:
Check the number of plate appearances Jeter had. He played on superior teams (with a DH) that allowed him to gain MLB leading plate appearances year after year and to his credit stayed healthy.

The face of MLB that you claim is true, because he was the captain of the Yankees. It was my point that was conveyed pages ago that Jeter benefited from his luck of being drafted to the most famous sports franchise in the world.

It's not a knock to be on Larkin's level. I think he's one of the most underrated players of my lifetime and just as great of a leader on and off the field as Jeter was.

But hey what's my laughable opinion worth?

The point you are making is moot because you are overlooking the real meat here, and that is Jeter was also able to make more of the 19 years of service then Larkin was, during the same 19 year time span. You are trying to penalize Jeter for being more consistent, more productive than Larkin was during an equal span of time.

sportscardtheory · Sep 12, 2013

jbhofmann said:
Check the number of plate appearances Jeter had. He played on superior teams (with a DH) that allowed him to gain MLB leading plate appearances year after year and to his credit stayed healthy.

The face of MLB that you claim is true, because he was the captain of the Yankees. It was my point that was conveyed pages ago that Jeter benefited from his luck of being drafted to the most famous sports franchise in the world.

It's not a knock to be on Larkin's level. I think he's one of the most underrated players of my lifetime and just as great of a leader on and off the field as Jeter was.

But hey what's my laughable opinion worth?

I wonder if the Hall voters took into consideration that Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle and Yogi Berra played for the Yankees. Were they penalized, you think. Should all players drafted to good teams be penalized and have their career accomplishments lessened.

jbhofmann · Sep 12, 2013

If we can all agree that he is/was face of baseball then why can't we agree that was because he played shortstop for the Yankees when they were a historically great franchise? Not because he was the best player in the game during any one year of his career.

This is my point. He put up great stats offensively, but is lifted by Yankee mystique and plays like diving into the stands or the controversial "flip".

You guys should read the Bill Gates Outliers story by Gladwell. I'll leave it at that.

matfanofold · Sep 12, 2013

jbhofmann said:
If we can all agree that he is/was face of baseball then why can't we agree that was because he played shortstop for the Yankees when they were a historically great franchise? Not because he was the best player in the game during any one year of his career.

This is my point. He put up great stats offensively, but is lifted by Yankee mystique and plays like diving into the stands or the controversial "flip".

If this is honestly your point, then obviously anyone would agree. However, the point I think you overlook is that these things are valid in regards to making Jeter a top tier 1'st ballot HOF'er. Statistics alone would make Jeter a HOF'er, add the points you make and his HOF worth grows exponentially.

jbhofmann · Sep 12, 2013

sportscardtheory said:
I wonder if the Hall voters took into consideration that Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle and Yogi Berra played for the Yankees. Were they penalized, you think. Should all players drafted to good teams be penalized and have their career accomplishments lessened.

Lobbing softballs now....

Did Ruth or Gehrig get 100% of the vote? The Yankee Clipper himself wasn't even a first ballot guy.

You tell me why.

jbhofmann · Sep 12, 2013

matfanofold said:
If this is honestly your point, then obviously anyone would agree. However, the point I think you overlook is that these things are valid in regards to making Jeter a top tier 1'st ballot HOF'er. Statistics alone would make Jeter a HOF'er, add the points you make and his HOF worth grows exponentially.

Yes. Without the Yankee bias he would be Barry Larkin.

You understand.

matfanofold · Sep 12, 2013

jbhofmann said:
Yes. Without the Yankee bias he would be Barry Larkin.

You understand.

Not quite, without the Yankee Bias (Read: Team leadership, championships, post game heroics, ect..) He would still be a offensively superior player. The sky is not red, I'm sorry but it is blue. Unfortunately my will to debate has been diminished by your lack of proper reasoning and context.

jbhofmann · Sep 12, 2013

matfanofold said:
Not quite, without the Yankee Bias (Read: Team leadership, championships, post game heroics, ect..) He would still be a offensively superior player. The sky is not red, I'm sorry but it is blue. Unfortunately my will to debate has been diminished by your lack of proper reasoning and context.

Look up Barry's playoff batting.

He can only play the number of games his team played.

He had a big ass "C" on his chest too. The first player to do so for the Reds on a long time.

Go on run away.

sportscardtheory · Sep 12, 2013

It truly isn't worth the argument. Everyone is allowed their opinion no matter how misguided.

maxe0213 · Sep 12, 2013

jbhofmann said:
Look up Barry's playoff batting.

He can only play the number of games his team played.

He had a big ass "C" on his chest too. The first player to do so for the Reds on a long time.

Go on run away.

Arguing with this guy is like trying to talk to rocks.

jbhofmann · Sep 12, 2013

maxe0213 said:
Arguing with this guy is like trying to talk to rocks.

The rocks you talk to talk back?

Is your name Bastion or Atreyu?

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