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Who gets into the HOF in 2016

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Gwynn545

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2008
5,526
44
North Seattle
I think that's quite off base. Brock was a very good lead off hitter and base stealer who made it to the magical 3000 hit mark. Raines "only" had 2600 hits but by OBP (0.385 vs. 0.343) was a better leadoff hitter and was a better base stealer (808 SB with 85% success vs. 938 SB with 75% success). Adding in Raines' advantages in OPS+ (123 vs. 109) and WAR (69.1 vs. 45.2) along with no discernible defensive differences (both mediocre at best) and it's very reasonable to conclude Raines was the better overall player.

Ok, that's fair if you go stats only. Maybe if you go stats only, like [MENTION=8688]U L Washington Rookie[/MENTION] said, Brock isn't a Hall of Famer? But man, what Lou Brock meant to the game of baseball is historic. He changed the game! He was a legend, even at the end of his career. They named an Award after him...when he was still in the league! There's a statue of him in front of the stadium because of his greatness and what he meant to the game of baseball. He is #58 on the Top 100 Greatest Players of the 20th Century! He was (is) loved, he was (is) feared, he was (is) respected, and even if he slowed down as he got older, he still batted .304 and made the All-Star team in his 19th, and final, season. All without snorting cocaine during games! [MENTION=2520]ChasHawk[/MENTION] said, "Raines was a better player in every way..." I can only imagine it was made in jest. The tongue-in-cheek emoji would have been helpful with that type of comment!
 

ChasHawk

New member
Sep 4, 2008
22,482
0
Belvidere, Illinois
Nope, no jest.

Raines was a better player.

Brock was attrocious defensively.

He had a -17.1 defensive WaR for his career. Nearly double Raines' -9.5, and Brock played four less seasons.

I believe you also brought up guys "hanging around". Brock hung around until he was 40, and finished his career with two -WaR seasons and a 0 WaR season to reach that magical 3,000 hit mark.

So during his last three seasons, he actually COST his team wins.

Ask any working baseball analyst who the better player and better leadoff hitter was.

Sorry you don't like Raines, but we have ways to quantify value offensively and defensively.

How exactly did Brock change the game, by the way?
 
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Gwynn545

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2008
5,526
44
North Seattle
Nope, no jest.

Raines was a better player.

Brock was attrocious defensively.

He had a -17.1 defensive WaR for his career. Nearly double Raines' -9.5, and Brock played four less seasons.

I believe you also brought up guys "hanging around". Brock hung around until he was 40, and finished his career with two -WaR seasons and a 0 WaR season to reach that magical 3,000 hit mark.

So during his last three seasons, he actually COST his team wins.

Ask any working baseball analyst who the better player and better leadoff hitter was.

Sorry you don't like Raines, but we have ways to quantify value offensively and defensively.

How exactly did Brock change the game, by the way?

How did he do it? By being a badass!

"Lou Brock, along with Maury Wills, are probably the two players most responsible for the biggest change in the game over the last fifteen years." - Tom Seaver in High-scoring Baseball (Todd Guilliams, Human Kinetics, 11/27/2012, 'Stolen Bases', Page 33)​
 

ChasHawk

New member
Sep 4, 2008
22,482
0
Belvidere, Illinois
How did he do it? By being a badass!

"Lou Brock, along with Maury Wills, are probably the two players most responsible for the biggest change in the game over the last fifteen years." - Tom Seaver in High-scoring Baseball (Todd Guilliams, Human Kinetics, 11/27/2012, 'Stolen Bases', Page 33)​

Didn't realize he played before...

Billy Hamilton - 914
Ty Cobb - 897
Arlie Latham - 742
Eddie Collins - 741
Max Carey - 738
And Honus Wagner - 723

You learn something new every day.
 

Gwynn545

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2008
5,526
44
North Seattle
Didn't realize he played before...

Billy Hamilton - 914
Ty Cobb - 897
Arlie Latham - 742
Eddie Collins - 741
Max Carey - 738
And Honus Wagner - 723

You learn something new every day.


How old are you? Because my sixth graders are probably just as good as you at looking up stats on Google, but I feel like they're a little better at reading for understanding, possibly inferencing and drawing conclusions.
 

psj

Active member
Jul 24, 2015
2,058
0
Long Island
Raines has more total bases than Honus Wagner, Roberto Clemente, and Ty Cobb. He's a definite hof'er. Sure he doesn't have 1 stat that really jumps out at you besides steals, but all his stats together are awesome.
 

elmalo

New member
Feb 19, 2010
5,216
0
Look at it objectively and you'll see only one strong season from 2007 - 2014. Throw out one of those due to injury and you're still at > 2 off years. Looks like Jr had one more iffy season than Jeter. One.
Yes he had off years in 10, and 14. 13 he only played 17 games.
 

U L Washington Rookie

Active member
Dec 7, 2012
1,623
0
D Town
Yes he had off years in 10, and 14. 13 he only played 17 games.
More like:
Yes he had off years in '07, '08, '10, '11, '12, and '14. In '13 he only played 17 games.

Maybe '07 is strong. Maybe. Still, that's more than a couple off years.

It appears that you're ignoring his sub-par defense. His one very good season during that stretch is the one during which he decided to put an emphasis on good defense. Amazing how that works out.

Throw in a couple iffy years in his prime, and "Jeter, in his career, really only had a couple of off years." isn't close to true. He was still great and all, but without the postseason, he's pretty similar to Lou Whitaker with a little better peak.

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphframe...graphsw&num=1&h=450&w=450&players=826,1013846
 

WCTYSON

Well-known member
Nov 3, 2014
7,364
171
Throw in a couple iffy years in his prime, and "Jeter, in his career, really only had a couple of off years." isn't close to true. He was still great and all, but without the postseason, he's pretty similar to Lou Whitaker with a little better peak.

Damn, someone broke out the graph linker. :eek: That being said, Whitaker should be in the HOF.
 

DaClyde

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2010
1,614
58
Huntsville, AL
I'm just gonna put this here:

bambamhof.JPG


So I now collect TWO Hall of Famers!
 

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