Did I find another shiller? CONFIRMED!

notjomommasclint said:

Well since his reputation is so great lets not discuss it. Clearly he is innocent.. Clearly there is not a talking point. Clearly running up 25 auctions $7 doesn't make as much sense as running up 1 auction $100. It's not like half the guys bids were on the sellers auctions. Half!! One of every 2 auctions..

Is there a book we can verify reputations in for future reference? It's awesome how when it's someone that doesn't benefit a group on the board everyone gets their mother XXXXing pitchforks and torches.. But a guy that is "reputable" gets questioned and its burn the op.

Here's a list of people with glowing reputations..

Bernie madoff
Lance armstrong
Every priest to touch a child
John Wayne gacy
Haiku

It's good their reputation kept them from being sneaky and underhanded..

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There have been times I have bid on 20 or more of Steve's auctions trying to win some of his unopened box auctions at what I consider a decent price and didn't win any of them. Got outbid on all of them by $1 or less and those were the only items I had bid on for a couple months. Someone could look at that and say I was shilling, but I was just putting in bids on items I liked at prices I was willing to pay then lost.

So I suppose by your logic everyone who does support the other side should just keep quiet when someone they have done business with and consider reputable is accused?

I think at this point...we all need to reach a common ground. I think with a reputation such as BBCE - there needs to be a pass because there are scenarios - and multiple ones (as fishy as they are) - that work out in his favor. But as the same time, all those that are skeptical - the history and the accounts have been noted - if there is a repeat scenario, there is justification is a crucifix.

It looks shady. But at the same time, he's got an immaculate rep.

bcubs said:

There have been times I have bid on 20 or more of Steve's auctions trying to win some of his unopened box auctions at what I consider a decent price and didn't win any of them. Got outbid on all of them by $1 or less and those were the only items I had bid on for a couple months. Someone could look at that and say I was shilling, but I was just putting in bids on items I liked at prices I was willing to pay then lost.

So I suppose by your logic everyone who does support the other side should just keep quiet when someone they have done business with and consider reputable is accused?

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So you've had auctions you've won, not paid for, bid on the relist, and carry a 48% bid activity with that seller?

So with my "logic" I'm wondering why the winning bidder of the first auction didnt bid the same value the sexond time? Doesnt that seem suspicious? I mean if you set your shill bid too high the first auction and ended up winning wouldn't you adjust your amount next time to maximize your earnings?

I'm not saying don't share your experience but I am saying is people get taken advantage of all the time. By people with great reputations.

George_Calfas said:

God forbid that one bidder bids on 10 auctions from one seller.

Look at the numbers, this is not a shill. Why he failed to pay who knows but many of us that have sold on eBay have ran across non-payers.

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I'm not saying that people don't bid on multiple auctions of the same seller. What I AM saying is that this looks more like shilling than anything I have ever seen, yet there's no XXXXing way it's shilling because "It's Steve! Why would he need to shill?" And the comment above "And when your reputation is good and you do volume like they do, you can expect to get prices you want to get as well." makes me think that it seems ok that he shills.

D-Lite said:

It matters what the card is worth because when you're selling a lot of big ticket items to risk your reputation on a $15 card is absolutely preposterous. BBCE does a lot of big ticket items including many via BIN. And when your reputation is good and you do volume like they do, you can expect to get prices you want to get as well.

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That's absolutely absurd...

"you know, if tonsofcommons had this card i'd only bid 8 bucks because i don't know if his rep is good despite his good feedback, but since it's bbce selling it i'll bid 12 bucks because he's a great guy with a great rep and expects to get more."

bigboyd does large volume and gets higher than normal prices as well...does he have the same kind of great reputation you're talking about that inspires such generosity in his customers?

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I'll say it anyway - I really don't understand all the animosity against "shilling". I've always seen it more as a way to "stick it to the man" (i.e. not have to pay ebay extra for a reserve). As far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't be my "right" to buy a card for far less than it's value as many seem to imply due to factors like limited exposure or generally fluky auction dynamics. Personally, I wouldn't care if someone was doing this to an auction I was bidding on.

With that being said, I DO NOT DO IT AND NEVER WILL. Despite my personal feelings on it, I wouldn't risk my credibility and get the scarlet "shiller" label because, quite simply, it's just bad for business. Check my ebay account - JEA2880 - and you'll see there's never been and never will be shilling of any kind because I don't want to compromise my credibility and integrity as a seller. I'd rather pay for the BIN/BO or just list at a higher starting price at auction than get into the shilling game.

Anyone else feel this way or am I alone?

tonsofcommons said:

So why did he win the same auction twice? Did he not pay the first time? If so, why did you let him bid again?

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Back in the day, ebay didn't automatically file the NPB warnings like they do now. Since the majority of my items sold for $10 or less and the FVF's were around 5%, I rarely bothered to file against non paying bidders, it just wasn't worth my time to bother just so I could get anywhere from a nickel to 50 cents back. As for a blocked bidder list, I think I have about 3 people on it and they are just people that like to leave negatives for no reason.

markakis8 said:

I think at this point...we all need to reach a common ground. I think with a reputation such as BBCE - there needs to be a pass because there are scenarios - and multiple ones (as fishy as they are) - that work out in his favor. But as the same time, all those that are skeptical - the history and the accounts have been noted - if there is a repeat scenario, there is justification is a crucifix.

It looks shady. But at the same time, he's got an immaculate rep.

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When did you become the resident shill expert? Was it after you where busted for shilling yourself?

nyc3 said:

When did you become the resident shill expert? Was it after you where busted for shilling yourself?

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Actually yes. It was something I regret still to this day. I wish I could take it back. I was naive and didn't realize it was stealing.

JEA2880 said:

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I'll say it anyway - I really don't understand all the animosity against "shilling". I've always seen it more as a way to "stick it to the man" (i.e. not have to pay ebay extra for a reserve). As far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't be my "right" to buy a card for far less than it's value as many seem to imply due to factors like limited exposure or generally fluky auction dynamics. Personally, I wouldn't care if someone was doing this to an auction I was bidding on.

With that being said, I DO NOT DO IT AND NEVER WILL. Despite my personal feelings on it, I wouldn't risk my credibility and get the scarlet "shiller" label because, quite simply, it's just bad for business. Check my ebay account - JEA2880 - and you'll see there's never been and never will be shilling of any kind because I don't want to compromise my credibility and integrity as a seller. I'd rather pay for the BIN/BO or just list at a higher starting price at auction than get into the shilling game.

Anyone else feel this way or am I alone?

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For the same reason you can't pump and dump stocks - you are essentially creating a false market.

markakis8 said:

Actually yes. It was something I regret still to this day. I wish I could take it back. I was naive and didn't realize it was stealing.

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I respect that, but shouldn't you doge these topics?

I guess I don't get this at all. Why wouldn't f*4 think you are the shill bidder? Your bid activity with the seller is 33% - sure it's not as high as 66%, but 33% isn't exactly evidence to the contrary. Anyway, f*4 still has the winning bid at $12.50 until you come along and bump it to $22.50 at the end. So he tells the seller he won't pay because he thinks it was shilled, seller decides to just relist it, and then f*4 decides he still wants the card, but he's only going to bid $15 this time because he doesn't want to get shilled up to $22 again.

Obviously you are not the shill bidder, but it seems possible that f*4 is telling the same story on SCF or Free Dome Cardboard or some other card site. I would accuse m*m as the obvious shiller here if there was one. History of bid retractions - higher than 10% with this seller - incremental $1 bids - those seem more like the hallmarks of a shiller to me. Although I would tend to believe that he also is someone looking for Pacific patches and/or someone who bids often from the same seller, and not a shiller either.

I probably look like a shiller on my LCS auctions - I bid often on them and at higher amounts because I can pick them up for free, so I'll bid $5 on a card that I'd normally only bid $3 on because I don't have to pay the $3 shipping. And I know there's no risk of not getting it or that it's not as described, and in the very small event there was a problem, they would take care of me in a second. As a matter of fact, can you see your own bid history with sellers? I can't do it through the auction I lost, or doesn't seem like I can at any rate, and I'm curious what mine would show for that seller.

nyc3 said:

I respect that, but shouldn't you doge these topics?

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I regret linking it in the other thread as it seems I was trying to play card cop. But I got nothing to hide about what I did a long time ago. I consider myself an honest guy.

markakis8 said:

For the same reason you can't pump and dump stocks - you are essentially creating a false market.

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That makes sense, didn't really think of it from that bigger-picture perspective. I guess the economist in me likes the idea of perfect price discrimination and don't see a harm in paying up to my max bid. But you make a fair point.

Why don't you guys email Steve and ask him yourself?

JEA2880 said:

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I'll say it anyway - I really don't understand all the animosity against "shilling". I've always seen it more as a way to "stick it to the man" (i.e. not have to pay ebay extra for a reserve). As far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't be my "right" to buy a card for far less than it's value as many seem to imply due to factors like limited exposure or generally fluky auction dynamics. Personally, I wouldn't care if someone was doing this to an auction I was bidding on.

With that being said, I DO NOT DO IT AND NEVER WILL. Despite my personal feelings on it, I wouldn't risk my credibility and get the scarlet "shiller" label because, quite simply, it's just bad for business. Check my ebay account - JEA2880 - and you'll see there's never been and never will be shilling of any kind because I don't want to compromise my credibility and integrity as a seller. I'd rather pay for the BIN/BO or just list at a higher starting price at auction than get into the shilling game.

Anyone else feel this way or am I alone?

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The bolded is exactly what anyone should do if they want a certain amount for a card. An auction should be an auction. If it's not, and it's shilled, then you strip a person's ability to win the item in an auction style format. And so it's not an auction. That's what pisses me off. If you auction it, then let it go. If you are not willing to or worried about how much it will make, then do a BIN/BO. With things being that simple, there really is no reason to shill. Any advantage gained will cost you in the end.

dp33 said:

I guess I don't get this at all. Why wouldn't f*4 think you are the shill bidder? Your bid activity with the seller is 33% - sure it's not as high as 66%, but 33% isn't exactly evidence to the contrary. Anyway, f*4 still has the winning bid at $12.50 until you come along and bump it to $22.50 at the end. So he tells the seller he won't pay because he thinks it was shilled, seller decides to just relist it, and then f*4 decides he still wants the card, but he's only going to bid $15 this time because he doesn't want to get shilled up to $22 again.

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Because a shiller wouldn't try to win the auction in the last 3 seconds of the listing BOTH times.

And you can't see your own stats.

Honestly, if you are going to shill an auction, why wouldn't you just bid 1 time, at the very beginning of the auction, with the amount you want, and be done with it?

tonsofcommons said:

Because a shiller wouldn't try to win the auction in the last 3 seconds of the listing BOTH times.

And you can't see your own stats.

Honestly, if you are going to shill an auction, why wouldn't you just bid 1 time, at the very beginning of the auction, with the amount you want, and be done with it?

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Well, he bid with less than 2 hours left the first time, and less than 5 minutes the second time, so he doesn't seem like a shill bidder either. He actually had his bid in before m*m started his shill-like bidding in the first auction.

That is a good point - that would be an easier way to try to avoid getting caught doing it.

Current auction I am bidding. This guy took the bids way above market price. This is just blatant right?

bjk4343 said:

Current auction I am bidding. This guy took the bids way above market price. This is just blatant right?

30-Day Summary
Total bids:	217
Items bid on:	77
Bid activity (%) with this seller:	95%

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Even Helen Keller would say there's some shillin' goin' on there.............

But wait....what's the sellers rep like? Is he a great guy, loved by all who overpay? Does he love children and puppies? Best of all, does he EXPECT to get above market value for his auctions, and deserve it, *********!?

Inquiring minds want to know...