Hall of Fame cuts eligibility on ballot from 15 to 10 years. Bad news for Bonds, McGwire, etc.

[rsmath]

I'm thinking more and more I want MLB executives, front office staff, and current and retired players who have ever been placed on an active MLB roster in their career vote for the Hall of Fame so that the Hall is filled with whoever can get 75% of their peers' votes.

If you have to keep voting to BWAA members, then make it BWAA members who have covered the game on a national basis, as they are most likely to have covered the big picture of baseball, not just covered the subsets of just the team whose chapter they were in, the division the team was in, or just the league their team was in.

 

[u2me57]

I'm glad the HOF finally cut it from 15 to 10 years. This should help keep the roiders out.

 

[A_Pharis]

Kiner was a beast.

 

[michaelstepper]

Kiner was a beast.

This.
Even if he played 7-10 more years and slowed up your looking at another 600 to possibly 700+ hr guy.

 

[MansGame]

Kiner was for sure a beast and it's interesting because he only played 10 seasons. The reason why this is interesting to me is because for people with short careers, you almost have to talk about what his averages were per season because his total #'s aren't milestones or anything. For me, that's interesting because that's the same way I have to shape why Belle should be in the HOF given he only played 12 official seasons, etc. I guess to be fair, if he wasn't such an a-hole to the media and writers during his playing days, maybe he would be. Here are his similar type stats...

Five time all-star
Five time sliver slugger winner
Five time top 10 MVP votes
Led the AL in HR once, RBI's three times
Hit 50 HR only once but was first player to hit 50 HR and 50 doubles in a season
12 year career averaging 40 HR
12 year career averaging 130 RBI
12 year career averaging 41 doubles
12 year career averaging nearly .300 BA

Amazing to really think that a player could play 12 seasons and average 40 HR, 40 doubles, 130 RBI and bat .300 and not be in the HOF... o well.

 

[A_Pharis]

Yeah, it's not Belle's stats keeping him out via the writers.

 

[maxe0213]

Kiner was for sure a beast and it's interesting because he only played 10 seasons. The reason why this is interesting to me is because for people with short careers, you almost have to talk about what his averages were per season because his total #'s aren't milestones or anything. For me, that's interesting because that's the same way I have to shape why Belle should be in the HOF given he only played 12 official seasons, etc. I guess to be fair, if he wasn't such an a-hole to the media and writers during his playing days, maybe he would be. Here are his similar type stats...

Five time all-star
Five time sliver slugger winner
Five time top 10 MVP votes
Led the AL in HR once, RBI's three times
Hit 50 HR only once but was first player to hit 50 HR and 50 doubles in a season
12 year career averaging 40 HR
12 year career averaging 130 RBI
12 year career averaging 41 doubles
12 year career averaging nearly .300 BA

Amazing to really think that a player could play 12 seasons and average 40 HR, 40 doubles, 130 RBI and bat .300 and not be in the HOF... o well.

Wait did you ever answer which one of those guys you didn't know?

 

[MansGame]

Wait did you ever answer which one of those guys you didn't know?

Didn't see someone ask me which ones... I didn't know Blyleven or Sutter... maybe I'm the only person and these should be obvious to me.

 

[DaClyde]

I agree with knocking a few years off the initial eligibility, but they really need to work that same magic on some of the voters. Any "protest" ballots (where they pick no one because of some gripe) should be an automatic revocation of voting privileges, and that ballot should be discarded.

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

Kiner was a beast.

This.
Even if he played 7-10 more years and slowed up your looking at another 600 to possibly 700+ hr guy.

Well, longevity is part of the equation, no? Simply being able to stick around and continue produce is what separates a lot of guys from the pack. A strong 10-12 year career is awesome and all, but to extrapolate at all takes the discussion away from reality and into fantasy. I care about what was, not what could have been (barring special circumstances like war-time military service mid-career, maybe).

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

Speaking of longevity, or lack thereof:

This is going to come across as a bit of heresy, but take an objective look at Koufax vs Johan Santana sometime. Very similar in total years of dominance, WAR, ERA+, WHIP, etc. Yet Koufax gets way more dap than Santana as an all-time great. What difference does it make that a guy simply retired young vs toiling around a few seasons due to injury?

There are a lot of factors that differ between their eras (mound height, expansion, the DH, medical advances, etc), so direct comparisons are kind of tough. But when compared to their peers, the difference isn't nearly as wide as the general opinions would suggest.

Guys from distant eras seem to get much more slack for short careers than more recent players. Maybe in 20 years, Santana will get the same.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

^^^ Agree to some degree. It helped Koufax that he finished with his dominant stretch , where I think it hurts Santana as people don't remember the good , just how his career is finishing. Also almost a half a run different in ERA rands out. If JS had an ERA under 3, I think he would get some more love, it stinks how injuries got to him as I always was a fan.

Ryan

 

[hrbek14]

I'm glad the HOF finally cut it from 15 to 10 years. This should help keep the roiders out.

They're putting in managers that benefited from roiders. The roiders themselves will get in sooner rather than later.

 

[MaineMule]

Kiner was for sure a beast and it's interesting because he only played 10 seasons. The reason why this is interesting to me is because for people with short careers, you almost have to talk about what his averages were per season because his total #'s aren't milestones or anything. For me, that's interesting because that's the same way I have to shape why Belle should be in the HOF given he only played 12 official seasons, etc. I guess to be fair, if he wasn't such an a-hole to the media and writers during his playing days, maybe he would be. Here are his similar type stats...

Five time all-star
Five time sliver slugger winner
Five time top 10 MVP votes
Led the AL in HR once, RBI's three times
Hit 50 HR only once but was first player to hit 50 HR and 50 doubles in a season
12 year career averaging 40 HR
12 year career averaging 130 RBI
12 year career averaging 41 doubles
12 year career averaging nearly .300 BA

Amazing to really think that a player could play 12 seasons and average 40 HR, 40 doubles, 130 RBI and bat .300 and not be in the HOF... o well.

Belle did not play 12 seasons- he played 10 + 2 partial (those are his 162 game averages). Had he averaged 40HRs and 130 RBIs for 12 years he would have 480/1560 and that would put him in the top 25-30 for HRs and top 40 for RBI's. I think those numbers would have merited serious consideration for the Hall.

 

[maxe0213]

Belle did not play 12 seasons- he played 10 + 2 partial (those are his 162 game averages). Had he averaged 40HRs and 130 RBIs for 12 years he would have 480/1560 and that would put him in the top 25-30 for HRs and top 40 for RBI's. I think those numbers would have merited serious consideration for the Hall.

Agree. If he had those numbers it's a lot closer than it is now. As for now, I'd hate for him to be in as he is not a HOF player.

 

[MansGame]

I'd hate for him to be in as he is not a HOF player.

Here we go...

 

[MansGame]

Belle did not play 12 seasons- he played 10 + 2 partial (those are his 162 game averages). Had he averaged 40HRs and 130 RBIs for 12 years he would have 480/1560 and that would put him in the top 25-30 for HRs and top 40 for RBI's. I think those numbers would have merited serious consideration for the Hall.

Good catch, may bad lol. Damn baseball-reference.

Okay, so if I do just his "10 full season" averages then, he averaged 37 HR and 120 RBI each season. That is the same as Kiner.

Not trying to make this into a Belle versus the world or why he should be in the HOF but I enjoy using him as a reference because he had some incredible numbers and he isn't in the HOF but as I've said before, he probably would be if it wasn't for him being an a-hole during his playing days with the media and writers.

 

[DeliciousBacon]

Good catch, may bad lol. Damn baseball-reference.

Okay, so if I do just his "10 full season" averages then, he averaged 37 HR and 120 RBI each season. That is the same as Kiner.

Not trying to make this into a Belle versus the world or why he should be in the HOF but I enjoy using him as a reference because he had some incredible numbers and he isn't in the HOF but as I've said before, he probably would be if it wasn't for him being an a-hole during his playing days with the media and writers.

Ralph Kiner put up his numbers in the days when those numbers weren't the norm. Belle's numbers, while pretty good, look normal in the offensive boom years of the 90's. Ken Caminiti, Shawn Green, and Brady Anderson (just to name three never-HOFers) were putting up comparable numbers to Belles at various times in the mid/late 90's. In Kiner's best seasons, he was blowing away the competition; in 1947, his 51 HR (tied with Mize) was 15 better than the next highest NL batter. In 1949, his 54 HR were 18 higher than 2nd place Musial. In 1950, same deal; Kiner hit 47 HR, Pafko was 2nd at 36. I'm no Kiner fan, I actually don't care much about him one way or the other, but sweet Jesus he was a freak in his prime. Probably terribly underrated, along with Johnny Mize, one of the few NL sluggers to approach Kiner's numbers on a year to year basis back then.

 

[MansGame]

Ralph Kiner put up his numbers in the days when those numbers weren't the norm. Belle's numbers, while pretty good, look normal in the offensive boom years of the 90's. Ken Caminiti, Shawn Green, and Brady Anderson (just to name three never-HOFers) were putting up comparable numbers to Belles at various times in the mid/late 90's. In Kiner's best seasons, he was blowing away the competition; in 1947, his 51 HR (tied with Mize) was 15 better than the next highest NL batter. In 1949, his 54 HR were 18 higher than 2nd place Musial. In 1950, same deal; Kiner hit 47 HR, Pafko was 2nd at 36. I'm no Kiner fan, I actually don't care much about him one way or the other, but sweet Jesus he was a freak in his prime. Probably terribly underrated, along with Johnny Mize, one of the few NL sluggers to approach Kiner's numbers on a year to year basis back then.

Yea, it's tough to compare guys from different eras, I get that. Again, not going to get into the Belle argument here. I've had threads about it in the past and don't wan to jack this thread with that discussion.

Again, Kiner was a beast, as I indicated earlier.

 

[gpenko826]

They're putting in managers that benefited from roiders. The roiders themselves will get in sooner rather than later.

Oh this times a million!!! If Tony LaRussa was such a great manager, why didn't he win with 1994 and 1995 a's? Or the 1986 White Sox? How did Joe Torre go from a thrice fired bum to the savior of baseball? Oh yeah - they had the advantage of managing teams with huge payrolls and superstars. I acknowledge they are good manager, but put them on the late 90's Pirates and they're nice guys who wouldn't get a sniff. Tom Kelly won 2 World Series and hung on for a loooooong time afterward making the most of a bad team with zero payroll - why isn't he a "master strategist" like Torre?

Take away the enormous payroll and unlimited resources and let Joe Torre fend for himself - at best he'd be a .500 manager. Is anyone shocked he won 4 World Series with what he had to work with?