new twist to the box top auto cut out scam

rum151man · Aug 20, 2012

just saw these on a search on ebay. looks as if they created their own labels to seal in these box top cut outs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YU-DARVISH-...0953924417?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item2a21b1c341

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180955048835?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

he has a bunch more listed

moxacaine · Aug 20, 2012

as long as people keep buying them, these people will keep listing them

rum151man · Aug 20, 2012

heres a couple completed he had

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROBERT-GRIF...0948823147?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item2a2163ec6b $153

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANDREW-LUCK...0948822464?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item2a2163e9c0 $136

RL24 · Aug 21, 2012

Yeah, people have been running similar scams for years now...

$(KGrHqV,!jME+s(zLvWhBQFEw5T24g~~60_57.JPG

I even have a few in my collection. Cards that were cut right off the box.

schmidtfan20 · Aug 21, 2012

I tell you that guy cuts cards better than topps does! Maybe they should hire him and his scissors!

PeteD · Aug 21, 2012

moxacaine said:
as long as people keep buying them, these people will keep listing them

He does state in title and description they're facsimile autos in big letters.

VandyDan · Aug 21, 2012

How is this not IP theft? He is taking a corporations intellectual property and selling it as his own creation. Topps didn't license these as individual cuts, yet here he is selling them as his own creation. It has trademarked material on it that he does not have license to use, yet he is using that copyrighted material to derive a profit.

Any IP lawyers here?

boomo · Aug 21, 2012

guy is as clear as can be about what it is, so scam? no.
silly, a bit yes. collectable? well to some people it is, i mean
they used to have cutouts on the twinkie boxes, that was legit.
i just look at it like a guy who found a way to make a few bucks,
give him credit for being a lover of pt barnum.

VandyDan · Aug 21, 2012

He is selling something with MLB and Topps logos that is not licensed by either entity. Notice how every card from real manufacturers has that language on it, and his don't? If someone alerted either company to this, he'd have a cease and desist order on his doorstep in a day.

MansGame · Aug 21, 2012

moxacaine said:
as long as people keep buying them, these people will keep listing them

Agree.

schmidtfan20 said:
I tell you that guy cuts cards better than topps does! Maybe they should hire him and his scissors!

::facepalm::

PeteD said:
He does state in title and description they're facsimile autos in big letters.

This. I would have to say this is pretty clear as day with it being in the title and description. As for the stickers, etc. not sure I understand how he got them and everything but I guess any one of us could produce 1/1 stickers and do the same thing?

All in all, these "box tops" are so stupid... then again, I've purchased worse Albert Belle odd ball items including candy bars and candy bar boxes, icecream box tops, cereal boxs, etc.

MansGame · Aug 21, 2012

VandyDan said:
How is this not IP theft? He is taking a corporations intellectual property and selling it as his own creation. Topps didn't license these as individual cuts, yet here he is selling them as his own creation. It has trademarked material on it that he does not have license to use, yet he is using that copyrighted material to derive a profit.

Any IP lawyers here?

VandyDan said:
He is selling something with MLB and Topps logos that is not licensed by either entity. Notice how every card from real manufacturers has that language on it, and his don't? If someone alerted either company to this, he'd have a cease and desist order on his doorstep in a day.

I'm not a lawyer but I consider myself smart and I'm having a hard time understanding you here. You are saying the boxes Topps sells their cards in are not licensed and therefore can't be resold or by altering the box topps he is creating his own item which isn't licensed? So if I had a cereal box and I cut out a picture of a player on the box and sold it on eBay, it would be fraud?

Not being difficult but want to know more. Just having a hard time understanding this.

sportscardtheory · Aug 21, 2012

Yeah, once you purchase the box, it's yours to do what you like with. Nothing illegal going on here. This seller is shady as hell, but certainly within the law.

VandyDan · Aug 21, 2012

sportscardtheory said:
Yeah, once you purchase the box, it's yours to do what you like with. Nothing illegal going on here. This seller is shady as hell, but certainly within the law.

Are you sure of that? I'm pretty sure you are wrong here. For example, I can't cut the Allen & Ginter logo out, glue it on a copy of Meinkampf and then sell it as an officially licensed copy of Meinkampf, as published by Topps. That is copyright infringement. But, if you have statutes or cases that state otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing them. In other words, do you think that or do you know that? If you do know that, how do you know that?

As to being clearer about what I meant:

Look at every single officially licensed (ie, Topps, UD, Panini) card you own from the last decade. You'll see, in fine print, explanations that the logos of the card company are copyrighted, and that the team logos and names are used with the permission of Major league baseball. These 'cuts' are using copyrighted material to derive a profit without the permission of the owners of the respective intellectual property (MLB, MLBPA, Topps, etc). Interestingly, the bottoms of hobby and retail boxes have the licensing language, so selling the entire box or empty pack is probably okay, as the licensing language is clearly printed on each.

This is no different than if Panini or Leaf/Razor/Benchwarmers cut out the Texas Rangers hat logo from the Darvish card, glued it on a Darvish card of their own, and sold it. They cannot do that because they do not have the licensing rights to the image. csvcards similarly does not have an MLB or A&G license. He is deriving a profit from the usage of intellectual property that he does not have the contractual right to use.

Simply buying a box of cards does not confer the right to use the logos to whatever purpose you want.

sportscardtheory · Aug 21, 2012

VandyDan said:
Are you sure of that? I'm pretty sure you are wrong here. For example, I can't cut the Allen & Ginter logo out, glue it on a copy of Meinkampf and then sell it as an officially licensed copy of Meinkampf, as published by Topps. That is copyright infringement. But, if you have statutes or cases that state otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing them. In other words, do you think that or do you know that? If you do know that, how do you know that?

As to being clearer about what I meant:

Look at every single officially licensed (ie, Topps, UD, Panini) card you own from the last decade. You'll see, in fine print, explanations that the logos of the card company are copyrighted, and that the team logos and names are used with the permission of Major league baseball. These 'cuts' are using copyrighted material to derive a profit without the permission of the owners of the respective intellectual property (MLB, MLBPA, Topps, etc). Interestingly, the bottoms of hobby and retail boxes have the licensing language, so selling the entire box or empty pack is probably okay, as the licensing language is clearly printed on each.

This is no different than if Panini or Leaf/Razor/Benchwarmers cut out the Texas Rangers hat logo from the Darvish card, glued it on a Darvish card of their own, and sold it. They cannot do that because they do not have the licensing rights to the image. csvcards similarly does not have an MLB or A&G license. He is deriving a profit from the usage of intellectual property that he does not have the contractual right to use.

Simply buying a box of cards does not confer the right to use the logos to whatever purpose you want.

So you honestly believe that it's illegal to sell one page torn from a book that you own?

VandyDan · Aug 21, 2012

sportscardtheory said:
So you honestly believe that it's illegal to sell one page torn from a book that you own?

That analogy is not completely apt. If the page is copyrighted material, yes. Yes it is illegal to use someone else's copyrighted intellectual property to derive a profit without the permission of the owner of that property. That's just what it means to copyright something. Buying a copy doesn't mean you buy any copyright permissions. Read the front flap of most books: ALL rights reserved including the right of reproduction in whole or in part in any form.

What this is more like is taking the label off of a bottle of Coke, taping that label to a bottle of your own beverage, and selling it as "soda in a bottle with a Coke label". You would be using copyrighted logos and material without permission.

Now, if you are imagining something like an artist painting portraits on torn book pages, presumably they could argue that they are not deriving profit from the copyrighted material. BUT in this case, the seller is clearly deriving the merchantability of their item from logos and material they do not have the right to use.

You may say "but dan, everyone i know photocopies textbooks, burns CDs, takes pictures of Major League games and hangs pictures with MLB logos in them on their wall". True. But those are for personal use, not profit. Additionally, copyright violations are rampant. But that doesn't mean Topps couldn't shut this down if they wanted to.

sportscardtheory · Aug 21, 2012

VandyDan said:
That analogy is not completely apt. If the page is copyrighted material, yes. Yes it is illegal to use someone else's copyrighted intellectual property to derive a profit without the permission of the owner of that property. That's just what it means to copyright something. Buying a copy doesn't mean you buy any copyright permissions. Read the front flap of most books: ALL rights reserved including the right of reproduction in whole or in part in any form.

What this is more like is taking the label off of a bottle of Coke, taping that label to a bottle of your own beverage, and selling it as "soda in a bottle with a Coke label". You would be using copyrighted logos and material without permission.

Now, if you are imagining something like an artist painting portraits on torn book pages, presumably they could argue that they are not deriving profit from the copyrighted material. BUT in this case, the seller is clearly deriving the merchantability of their item from logos and material they do not have the right to use.

You may say "but dan, everyone i know photocopies textbooks, burns CDs, takes pictures of Major League games and hangs pictures with MLB logos in them on their wall". True. But those are for personal use, not profit. Additionally, copyright violations are rampant. But that doesn't mean Topps couldn't shut this down if they wanted to.

There is nothing being reproduced! He OWNS the box that his cards came in. He can do whatever he wants with it, including profiting from it. He's not selling a reproduction, he's selling what he bought and OWNS.

Krom · Aug 21, 2012

VandyDan said:
Are you sure of that? I'm pretty sure you are wrong here. For example, I can't cut the Allen & Ginter logo out, glue it on a copy of Meinkampf and then sell it as an officially licensed copy of Meinkampf, as published by Topps.

How is that similar to cutting a part of a box and selling it? I don't think he is putting his own logo on it.

saferseas · Aug 21, 2012

Yeah if you own a book, video, empty baseball card box, whatever, you are not reproducing copyrighted material if you sell the used item that you purchased. If so, the authorities would be shutting down garage sales left and right. Yes, the box has been altered by him cutting out the card image, but it seems to me that isn't any different than selling a used text book with liner notes written in.

MansGame · Aug 21, 2012

Krom said:
How is that similar to cutting a part of a box and selling it? I don't think he is putting his own logo on it.

I agree with all your points but maybe with him putting in a case, slapping a fancy sticker on it, calling it a 1 of 1, etc. makes it a "new" product and not simply just a cut part of a box... he is altering the material to create his own product, which has logos, etc. on it, and therefore can't be sold for profit.

I could be WAY off... starting to get it now...

rum151man · Aug 21, 2012

I honestly dont know how this would go down if it went to court but I could see it going either way. 1 side yes he bought the box and technically it is his property to do what he pleases, but on the other hand he is purposely cutting these box tops to copy or mimic a topps Allen & Ginter card and is specifically trying to trick people into believing that they are a real topps product.

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