David Ortiz sets record for hits by a DH

sportscardtheory · Jul 11, 2013

HBT Daily: Should a DH make the Hall of Fame? | HardballTalk

This got me to thinking. Most know that Ortiz most likely won't make the HOF due to PED ties, but we ALL know Frank Thomas will make the Hall. A little known fact is that Thomas played a higher percentage of his career at DH than on the field, so he WILL be the first DH elected to the Hall of Fame. My question is, will Thomas' induction open the door for players like Edgar Martinez and possibly Harold Baines (Veteran's Committee) to eventually make it?

Edit - I accidentally spelled entry, "entery" in the poll question. Doh!

Enfuego79 · Jul 11, 2013

Good question to ask, I mean I really don't see a legit reason NOT to induct a DH into the hall. Would be nice to see history being made

Looking for Alex Rodriguez Cards, let me know!

Austin · Jul 11, 2013

Frank Thomas will have absolutely no effect on Martinez' chances.
Thomas' best years, which were similar to Pujols' best seasons, were at first base.

I know Mariners fans love him, but I don't think Martinez has a chance to make the Hall, except maybe 20 years down the line from the Veterans Committee.

In fact, I think his mystique is enhanced by being a DH because it makes him stand out.
Martinez' offensive stats and longevity were similar to a player like Larry Walker.
But Walker was a much better all-around player, and has no shot at the Hall.
If Martinez was not a DH, fewer people would consider him a Hall of Famer.

sportscardtheory · Jul 11, 2013

Austin said:
Frank Thomas will have absolutely no effect on Martinez' chances.
Thomas' best years, which were similar to Pujols' best seasons, were at first base.

I know Mariners fans love him, but I don't think Martinez has a chance to make the Hall, except maybe 20 years down the line from the Veterans Committee.

In fact, I think his mystique is enhanced by being a DH because it makes him stand out.
Martinez' offensive stats and longevity were similar to a player like Larry Walker.
But Walker was a much better all-around player, and has no shot at the Hall.
If Martinez was not a DH, fewer people would consider him a Hall of Famer.

Edgar Martinez has a career batting average of .312. Care to guess how many inactive players from the modern era, with no ties to PEDs, with a career batting average over .310, who aren't currently on the ballot, aren't in the Hall of Fame?

hive17 · Jul 11, 2013

Paul Molitor played more games as DH than 3B, so would we consider Molitor the first DH in the HoF? He didn't have as many years as a DH, but they were also argueably his best.

sportscardtheory · Jul 11, 2013

hive17 said:
Paul Molitor played more games as DH than 3B, so would we consider Molitor the first DH in the HoF? He didn't have as many years as a DH, but they were also argueably his best.

He played more games/innings in the field than at DH though. He's still considered a fielder.

Austin · Jul 11, 2013

sportscardtheory said:
Edgar Martinez has a career batting average of .312. Care to guess how
many inactive players from the modern era, with no ties to PEDs, with a career batting average over .310, who aren't currently on the ballot, aren't in the Hall of Fame?

For such a high average guy, Martinez never had more than 182 hits in a season.
I'm sorry, but that's not a Hall of Fame player.
Neither is 2,200 hits or 309 home runs.

Again, if Martinez wasn't a DH, few people would consider him a Hall of Famer.
The fact that he was a DH is what makes him stand out.
Otherwise, he's Larry Walker or Don Mattingly without the Gold Gloves.

hive17 · Jul 11, 2013

sportscardtheory said:
He played more games/innings in the field than at DH though. He's still considered a fielder.

Yeah, I see your point, but you can't put him at any real position when discussing all-time-great fielders. But when you add in DH, he's the best? second best? My point would be, you don't really compare players as "fielders" as a whole, you compare by position. Molitor doesn't have a true home in the field.

Just a thought.

sportscardtheory · Jul 11, 2013

Austin said:
For such a high average guy, Martinez never had more than 182 hits in a season.
I'm sorry, but that's not a Hall of Fame player.
Neither is 2,200 hits or 309 home runs.

Again, if Martinez wasn't a DH, few people would consider him a Hall of Famer.
The fact that he was a DH is what makes him stand out.
Otherwise, he's Larry Walker or Don Mattingly without the Gold Gloves.

The answer is ZERO. Edgar, Walker and Guerrero are the only three inactive, modern day players, with no ties to PEDs, not yet in the HOF, with career BAs over .310. The HOF isn't all about how many total hits and homeruns you have.

elmalo · Jul 11, 2013

sportscardtheory said:
The answer is ZERO. Edgar, Walker and Guerrero are the only three inactive, modern day players, with no ties to PEDs, not yet in the HOF, with career BAs over .310. The HOF isn't all about how many total hits and homeruns you have.

Guerrero will get in.

sportscardtheory · Jul 11, 2013

elmalo said:
Guerrero will get in.

Agreed. Walker would be in if he didn't play most of his career at Coors and Edgar would be in if he was a fielder.

vwnut13 · Jul 11, 2013

Hey David, have you gotten to the bottom of your 2003 Positive test yet?

We're still waiting...

MansGame · Jul 11, 2013

I vote no. Frank is a shoe in but I (for some reason) still think of him as a first baseman.

chompsmcgee · Jul 11, 2013

It's hard to collect more than 182 hits in a season when pitchers walk you around 100 times a year. Check out Edgar's OBP and the several years he lead the league in that category. Also, note the career .412 OBP. Not to mention the guy had one of the best seven-year offensive stretches in the history of baseball. Look it up. Here, I'll help: How Great Was Edgar Martinez?s Bat? | FanGraphs Baseball

I'm assuming you never saw Edgar play as he was an above average defender at third before his hammies went to XXXX.

Edgar was no doubt one of the greatest hitters of his generation. Is he HOF worthy? Absolutely. Will he continue to be marginalized by fans and writers who relish in milestone numbers over era dominance? You bet.

Austin · Jul 11, 2013

chompsmcgee said:
It's hard to collect more than 182 hits in a season when pitchers walk you around 100 times a year.

He had 85+ walks eight times. Wade Boggs had 85+ walks nine times, yet still got 200 hits in seven of those years.
Even Bernie Williams and John Olerud had 100 walks and more than 200 hits in a season.
Being a premier hitter and not ever getting more than 182 hits in a season is just not Hall of Fame worthy.

I know you're a Mariners fan and love him, and I respect that, but there's a reason only 35% of HOF voters think he belongs.
If he wasn't a DH, no one would be debating if he's a Hall of Famer because there would be no chance in hell he would be with 2,200 hits and 300 homers.
Being a great hitting DH makes him stand out, because if he were a fielder, he'd fall into the classes of Don Mattingly and Larry Walker. Great but not great enough.

chompsmcgee said:
I'm assuming you never saw Edgar play as he was an above average defender at third before his hammies went to XXXX.

And I saw Don Mattingly play all during the '80s. Nine Gold Glove awards. Could have 15 if his back didn't go out. Better hitter than Martinez in his prime. Both have about the same number of hits. And neither is getting in the Hall of Fame.

uniquebaseballcards · Jul 11, 2013

vwnut13 said:
Hey David, have you gotten to the bottom of your 2003 Positive test yet?

We're still waiting...

Many are waiting for the same to happen in '13...

sportscardtheory · Jul 11, 2013

Austin said:
He had 85+ walks eight times. Wade Boggs had 85+ walks nine times, yet still got 200 hits in seven of those years.
Even Bernie Williams and John Olerud had 100 walks and more than 200 hits in a season.
Being a premier hitter and not ever getting more than 182 hits in a season is just not Hall of Fame worthy.

I know you're a Mariners fan and love him, and I respect that, but there's a reason only 35% of HOF voters think he belongs.
If he wasn't a DH, no one would be debating if he's a Hall of Famer because there would be no chance in hell he would be with 2,200 hits and 300 homers.
Being a great hitting DH makes him stand out, because if he were a fielder, he'd fall into the classes of Don Mattingly and Larry Walker. Great but not great enough.

And I saw Don Mattingly play all during the '80s. Nine Gold Glove awards. Could have 15 if his back didn't go out. Better hitter than Martinez in his prime. Both have about the same number of hits. And neither is getting in the Hall of Fame.

In his 4th year on the ballot, Mattingly had only 12.8% of the vote, while Martinez had 35.9% in his 4th year on the ballot. Mattingly has never had higher than 28.2% of the vote and has been around 10-15% for the last 12 years, while Martinez has never had less than 32.9% in any of his 4 seasons on the ballot. Needless to say, Martinez is MUCH closer to being a Hall of Famer than Mattingly, as most players who have ever topped 35% at any point in time have eventually made it in.

klute14 · Jul 11, 2013

vwnut13 said:
Hey David, have you gotten to the bottom of your 2003 Positive test yet?

We're still waiting...

And I'm sure Andrew only did HGH one time

RogerMarisCollector61 · Jul 12, 2013

Austin said:
For such a high average guy, Martinez never had more than 182 hits in a season.
I'm sorry, but that's not a Hall of Fame player.
Neither is 2,200 hits or 309 home runs.

Again, if Martinez wasn't a DH, few people would consider him a Hall of Famer.
The fact that he was a DH is what makes him stand out.
Otherwise, he's Larry Walker or Don Mattingly without the Gold Gloves.

I hope this was a joke. He averaged 101 walks/162 games, so please explain to me why the number of hits he has is relevant. If he walked only 50 times a year but hit 18 more singles you would think he's better because he reached 200 hits? Edgar Martinez is a hall of famer BECAUSE he was the master of the walk, and hit a ridiculous amount of extra base hits. The number of hits you accumulate is not a good indicator of performance.

elmalo · Jul 12, 2013

Good for Ortiz. One of the nicest men in baseball. P'alante!

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