Does anyone really care about this? I would love to hear your thoughts..........

I am not sure anyone even cares here about the Mastro Auction Court proceedings but I figure I would throw this out there.

Now before I start let me explain why I am not sure anyone cares here. Most of the collectors here are just that, collectors who really don't have the big money to go after extreme high end cards and memorabilia that is being talked about with Mastro. Of course, some do have that kind of money but for the most part many of us are not going to compete with the Steinbrennar's and Olbermann's of the world for sports related collectibles.

So long story short, Bill Mastro and his employees Doug Allen and a few others have been convicted in Federal court of shill bidding their auctions. I will not re-write everything here but if interested you can read the following:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i...stro-spend-20-months-prison-article-1.2326340

Mastro and his co-conspirators have pled guilty to these charges and have even admitted to trimming the famous T-206 Wagner that is graded PSA 8 (highest graded ever) that was once owned by Hockey great Wayne Gretzky. Why this card is still in a PSA 8 holder after these admissions is another story for another day.

The court has now posted a listing of those auctions that were indeed shilled and who the owners of the lots were, who did the shilling and who won the lots. There are some HUGE names in these lists including Stenbrenner, Olbermann and many hobby heavy weights such as the Formans who own SGC and others who are heads of current auction companies. Here is the list of names:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3S...ew?usp=sharing

My question is this, as average collectors does anyone here really care? Is this issue with Mastro rich people problems that do not touch any of us who are just cracking open packs or trying to fill sets?

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Edited to add.....Let me just add the Google drive doc was compiled by a contributor on the Net54 boards who goes by the handle bn2cardz. Since he posted it publicly in the Net54 thread I am posting it here as well.

Just another example of the dark side of our hobby, sad.

It is sad and there have been/are too many dark sides of the hobby recently. I have been collecting since I was 8 years old and am now 52 and this is probably the worst I have seen it.

It has been suggested on the Net54 boards that no other boards are talking about this because it doesnt touch anyone but the big shooters. This is mainly why I posted here to gauge the collector's opinion on it.

i think we'd all be mad if we found out for sure that we'd been shilled, be it $4K at a major auction house or $40 for an ebay auction, but I think you probably did hit it on the head. Most of us are not spending as much in a year (or a lifetime in rare cases) than some of the single lots sold for on that list, so it really is a First World Problem and one for those with lots of disposable income. I know it happens on ebay to a smaller $ extent, but I guess we all deal with it the way we can or need to. I snipe and if I get it for less than my bid, I am happy. If I have to pay more because a fake bid runs up the amount, then yes I am bothered by it, but in the end I still got it for what I was willing to pay and there is no way around it other than to avoid auctions all together.

Some of the people that were shilled, were also putting shilled bids on other items. I guess pay back is a real ***** some times.

I personally only deal with high end items direct with other collectors. As far as anything else on eBay, items from $1-$1000 are shipped all the time. All you can do is bid what your willing to pay. I snipe as much as possible and do my best to pay over what I'm willing to spend

Yes, because we know it is happening to us on eBay too. Probably could have won a few things cheaper there without this type of dishonest thing going on, Greed!!

I think people do care. There has been a lot of griping about a certain seller here lately. I think the way it bothers us(and by us I mean this board in general) is not the same it would bother a guy dropping thousands on a single lot. Because, as you pointed out, while some of us do drop a lot, others of us do not. So our tendency is to avoid what we feel may be monkey business and move on. And hell, unless it's a 1/1, there is always that opportunity to walk the other way and avoid the shady stuff(real or perceived). But with what Mastro was selling, the items are rare at times so it's not as easy to walk away. It's either deal with the possibility or watch that one of a kind item slip through your fingers. The money involved is what leads it to be worth and allowed it to be, confronted legally. If this is some jerk on ebay or wherever shilling up his $30 auto card, you'd have a hard time getting anyone to take a look at that or forcing the issue. I think that, in a nutshell, is what allows a lot of people to care, but not enough to make any sort of outcry about it.


But yes, this is what pretty much makes me stay away from vintage and high end items. I think anyone, even the guy with the smallest collecting budget, could afford nice items. You just have to save up. But IMO, it's not worth it considering all the fraud and altering going on. I'd rather just steer clear. That is how it has affected me anyways...

Yes I care. I feel bad for the hobby when this stuff happens and it's as large scale as something like this. Those who really were effected negatively, it sucks. Can't imagine, regardless of the $ you have, that this sits as a "oh well" I didn't pay more than I wanted to feeling. You think an Auction House can be trusted more than the average person, but guess that's just what they want you to believe.

Ryan

RStadlerASU22 said:

Yes I care. I feel bad for the hobby when this stuff happens and it's as large scale as something like this. Those who really were effected negatively, it sucks. Can't imagine, regardless of the $ you have, that this sits as a "oh well" I didn't pay more than I wanted to feeling. You think an Auction House can be trusted more than the average person, but guess that's just what they want you to believe.

Ryan

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Nothing against auction houses, but I'd say an auction house has every single reason in the world to try to increase sale prices. Not only for their immediate gain but future gain in the way of increased amounts of people using their business because they have a reputation for getting more money. You know...the prestige thing.

IMO, if there is a way to make more money, no matter how unscrupulous it is, you can bet somebody is doing it. A lot. That's just how people are.

predatorkj said:

Nothing against auction houses, but I'd say an auction house has every single reason in the world to try to increase sale prices. Not only for their immediate gain but future gain in the way of increased amounts of people using their business because they have a reputation for getting more money. You know...the prestige thing.

IMO, if there is a way to make more money, no matter how unscrupulous it is, you can bet somebody is doing it. A lot. That's just how people are.

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I totally get that. I understand they have a lot to gain, a lot to lose also. And yes greed is a mother******. I guess my thought is you'd like to hold them to a higher standard, not that actually live up to those thoughts.

Ryan

mchenrycards said:

Mastro and his co-conspirators have pled guilty to these charges and have even admitted to trimming the famous T-206 Wagner that is graded PSA 8 (highest graded ever) that was once owned by Hockey great Wayne Gretzky. Why this card is still in a PSA 8 holder after these admissions is another story for another day.

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Nice that they finally admitted what everybody already knew. I can't see it affecting the value since the card is by far the most famous one in the hobby, and anybody who buys it is buying it to own THE card. As far as why it's still in a PSA holder...PSA doesn't own it and it's not like they can force the current owner to crack it out. The owner has no reason to break it out or re-holder it with a proper grade.

The Yankees owner got shilled too.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/y...=DailyNewsletter - Horizon Control Smart List

Dilferules said:

Nice that they finally admitted what everybody already knew. I can't see it affecting the value since the card is by far the most famous one in the hobby, and anybody who buys it is buying it to own THE card. As far as why it's still in a PSA holder...PSA doesn't own it and it's not like they can force the current owner to crack it out. The owner has no reason to break it out or re-holder it with a proper grade.

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You are correct in that PSA can do nothing until that card is resubmitted for grading and if I was the owner that would never happen as the mystique of the card would now be gone.

Here's link to the court record https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Sh1S-APDWEa25KNHItYTR5dkFnR1NhTk1Pbm41RTVsbGVB/view

The list of who shilled who starts on page 13.

I've known Hal Lewis for years. He's listed as a consignor for several auctions from '07. Does that mean he had knowledge of the shill bidding, or was this Mastro's doing? If it was Hal, I've lost all respect for him.

mchenrycards said:

It has been suggested on the Net54 boards that no other boards are talking about this because it doesnt touch anyone but the big shooters. This is mainly why I posted here to gauge the collector's opinion on it.

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Even though I and many others don't
have big money, this does affect us. I assume topps and panini and leaf, etc. buy items sometimes from these big auction houses and this type of activity may affect us collectors (an item might become too expensive thru the bid process that the budget can't be met and the item is not acquired to be cut up and inserted or the more expensive than estimated acquisition price may cause the price per box or case to be higher than desired).

rsmath said:

Even though I and many others don't
have big money, this does affect us. I assume topps and panini and leaf, etc. buy items sometimes from these big auction houses and this type of activity may affect us collectors (an item might become too expensive thru the bid process that the budget can't be met and the item is not acquired to be cut up and inserted or the more expensive than estimated acquisition price may cause the price per box or case to be higher than desired).

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That is a good point. Hadn't really thought about if the card companies were shilled. If so, def would have a downhill effect on product cost. It's just bad for the hobby as a whole. When people say any publicity is good publicity, the only way to look at it is hopefully this puts breaks on others following this type of practice and has a positive effect in legitimizing the auctions some more.

Ryan

JoshHamilton said:

I've known Hal Lewis for years. He's listed as a consignor for several auctions from '07. Does that mean he had knowledge of the shill bidding, or was this Mastro's doing? If it was Hal, I've lost all respect for him.

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yep...that is exactly what it means. Do a search on Net54 for Hal and see what you come up with. I think it might be an eye opener.