Card Trimming.

flightposite · Apr 5, 2009

Just wanted to get some thoughts from members on how rampant they think this is in the industry.

I just happened to be cycling through the BGS numbers around the number for the Pujols 01 Bowman Chrome auto up on ebay and noticed that a bunch of the got the 0-0-0-0. (Good way to help tell if your card may be trimmed by the way).

But that just got me thinking about how much trimming is going on. I think it really is just showing the tip of the iceberg right now. So many people are oblivious to the fact that it even goes on at all and the numbers that know its going on, but don't think it's a huge problem are also small. I think I am in the very small majority that thinks there is a lot of trimming going on. I think a lot of singles being sold are trimmed and I think a lot of gem graded cards are trimmed. I know i've purchased three different Mauer 02 BC Gold Ref autos and got rid of them all as they were skinnier than the cards I know for a fact are not trimmed.

And yes, I know that the majority of cards are still unaltered, but I think that's a very small majority... What do you think.

jcmint · Apr 5, 2009

I think there are a handful of ********** that are trimming. Unfortunately after there cards get rejected they are released on the open market. There are a lot more cards getting bounced from BGS then you realize. Graders have no idea whos cards they are grading. If the card does not measure up it is bounced and a red flag goes up for the rest of the batch.

It is a sad fact of the hobby that these scumbags are knowingly selling their trimmed cards on the open market. This is why I really like the threads that bring attention to the trimmers and the alter accounts. I think we should do more to expose them and help fellow collectors from not buying their trimmed crap.

I have subbed thousands of cards over the years and have only had 2 come back with evidence of trimming. They were actually pack pulled by me personally. I thought that was funny but I did like the fact they do measure every card.

AKA Coastal · Apr 5, 2009

I busted a PSA 9 A-Rod Leaf Limited Phenom card and sent it to BGS. It came back with signs of trimming. I sold it on Ebay as a trimmed card and took a huge hit.

matchpenalty · Apr 5, 2009

A lot of trimming has gone and will continue to go on and many still end up getting holdered in BGS and PSA slabs. The main problem is that straight from card companies, the card size can vary ever so slightly. With all the technology out today and big money to be made on high end cards. I don't ever see it stopping, will only get worse.

jcmint · Apr 5, 2009

AKA Coastal said:
I busted a PSA 9 A-Rod Leaf Limited Phenom card and sent it to BGS. It came back with signs of trimming. I sold it on Ebay as a trimmed card and took a huge hit.

Kudos to you for disclosing that many here would not

Ian Stewart · Apr 5, 2009

flightposite said:
I know i've purchased three different Mauer 02 BC Gold Ref autos and got rid of them all as they were skinnier than the cards I know for a fact are not trimmed.

If these cards were raw and not graded, did you disclose they were skinnier?

rainmanesq · Apr 5, 2009

I think trimming’s a lot harder to detect now that more people are using the minimum grade option + raw card review. I’ve noticed a definite uptick in the # of cards getting rcred @ shows, being bounced for being trimmed + then being sold raw @ the show and/or on ebay.

As for graders not knowing whose cards they’re grading, that may be true if you mail in a sub, but I don’t think it’s true if you sub @ a show. @ certain shows, large subbers (+ well known alleged trimmers) sub their cards BEFORE the show even opens. Obviously if bgs only has say 5 subs, they’re going to know exactly who those subs belong to. There are 5 guys off the top of my head that I know do this @ just about every single major show. @ certain shows, dealers talk about whether the “hard grader” is there or when/if the “hard grader” is leaving the show early. @ certain shows, dealers are able to have the grader brought out + to haggle w/the grader over why the card isn’t a 9.5 or isn’t trimmed.

1 thing I have noticed is that bgs seems to be doing more “spot checking” on rcrs. There was a certain show last year where the “hard grader” left early + a ridonkulous # of 9.5s were handed out. when the dealers sent those cards into BGS to be slabbed, supposedly some of the 9.5s got LOWERED to 9s. I’ve also noticed that trimmers seem to be having a harder time getting their cards 9.5ed. however, they’ve started “filtering” their cards to bgs through other dealers as I suspect bgs may have “flagged” certain dealers as trimmers, so “mixing it up” tends to hide who the cards really belong to and in some cases, seems to up the # of 9.5s. I’ve also noticed bgs seems to be getting “harsher” w/those who bulk sub/play the “let me submit this 5-10x until it DOES 9.5” and “let me sub bump this” games.

Hang around enough shows + you’ll see/hear the same things along w/many other stories like how cards that 8.5 on Friday magically become 9.5s/10s by sunday.

Bottom line: I don’t think trimming is ridiculously high, but I think trimming/other questionable (excessive sub bumping; subbing cards 5-10x until they 9.5; rcr 8.5 on fri becomes 9.5/10 on sun.; etc.) behavior is rising + is more prevalent than most people think.

bear0555 · Apr 5, 2009

I do believe trimming is prevalent, but probably not to the degree flightposite thinks. I certainly would be more cautious with higher end pujols rcs, etc. I have owned one card I believe was trimmed, and other than the size of the card, there was no evidence it was trimmed. I compared it to scans online and my card seemed smaller. I looked at the edges and the suspected trimmed edge looked like it was a clean cut from the factory.

I also believe bgs rejects more cards than most think but don't know enough to say for sure.

Austin · Apr 5, 2009

rainmanesq said:
I’ve also noticed that trimmers seem to be having a harder time getting their cards 9.5ed. however, they’ve started “filtering” their cards to bgs through other dealers as I suspect bgs may have “flagged” certain dealers as trimmers, so “mixing it up” tends to hide who the cards really belong to and in some cases, seems to up the # of 9.5s.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought BGS graders do not know who each submission is from. The customers are supposedly kept anonymous.

gregbara · Apr 5, 2009

Austin said:
rainmanesq said:

I’ve also noticed that trimmers seem to be having a harder time getting their cards 9.5ed. however, they’ve started “filtering” their cards to bgs through other dealers as I suspect bgs may have “flagged” certain dealers as trimmers, so “mixing it up” tends to hide who the cards really belong to and in some cases, seems to up the # of 9.5s.

Click to expand...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought BGS graders do not know who each submission is from. The customers are supposedly kept anonymous.

That is what I have heard from more than one or two people close to the BGS graders. When the order comes in it gets a number, and that is all that is attached to the cards. They do not know who's it is. Its a check in both directions, as it ensure that you not going to get a friends order and Pristine them all, and also prevents grading cards on a grudge.

brouthercard · Apr 5, 2009

I think this has been, is, and will be forever a problem with high end rookie cards, especially with the advent of grading and the $ involved with it, and our obsession with perfection.

I am really hesitant about buying ANY high end rookie card that I don't know a complete history of (where the seller got the card, who pulled it, who has owned it previously, if it has been regraded, etc. etc. ) and frankly, I've probably saved a lot of money because i'm so obsessive/complulsive about it.

Trimming has gone on since card collecting has existed, even in the early 1900's when people wanted their cards to look as nice as possible, this isn't a new phenomenon.

Always, you need to educate yourself about card tampering and make your choices accordingly. If the possibility doesn't bother you, enjoy your hobby and don't stress about it.

For me, grading really doesn't do anything for me, cause I don't trust ANY grading company, and I have seen many examples in person of doctored cards being slabbed- that isn't new.

That's why I continue to preach- buy the card, not the grade.

The only way you know for sure the card hasn't been tampered with is if you pulled it yourself.

And that's another great reason to crack more wax! :lol:

matfanofold · Apr 5, 2009

Here is what I can offer on card trimming...

Back in the early 80's when card's and value(s) really started to take off, everyone and there brother were scouring for vintage material to trim. A little known fact about vintage cards (that modern collectors might not know) is that they were all cut varying in size with a good deal of them slightly larger than normal. It was common practice for a decade, and even longer, for these vintage cards to be bought, trimmed and resold as 'mint' and the size would still be dead on due to the origonal cut being a bit too large anyway's.

Having said this, I would bet that 50%, if not more, of pre '60 vintage cards that are nm-mt or better fall in to the catagory of being cut. It was big business and everyone was doing it. I can remember in the mid 80's where if you were a dealer/buyer at a show, you had 3 things.

1. A beckett.
2. A List.
3. A ruler.

The question now remains, that if a card was/is trimmed and it simply brings the card down to it's accepted original size, does it matter? Well, for me it does. I'd rather have a raw factory cut vintage card as opposed to a nicely cut/trimmed (albiet correct size) origonal vintage card any day. This is also the reason I would never buy graded vintage. The premium you are paying has a good chance to be the work of a trimmer.

I realise that trimming is just part of the hobby and for every 1 that gets cought, 100 will get buy(expecially for vintage), but this is also why I only collect for fun and would never "invest" in cards. Sure I sell from time to time, but these are solely pulls.

Trimming is just a part of the hobby. A part that's been here since the concept of value of cards it'self. An unfortunate side effect is that it really effects the more sought after cards, Mantles, Ruth's, ect..

uniquebaseballcards · Apr 5, 2009

I don't trust any grading company either. We need to invent an iPone app that will objectively grade cards for us - seriously! The only way grading will work is if it were not subjectively done by humans.

But with that said, if there is enough money to be made, there will be plenty of people trying to take advantage of the system. I entirely agree that the best remedy is to be 100% informed - know all the risks and consequences before buying anything worthwhile.

brouthercard said:
I think this has been, is, and will be forever a problem with high end rookie cards, especially with the advent of grading and the $ involved with it, and our obsession with perfection.

I am really hesitant about buying ANY high end rookie card that I don't know a complete history of (where the seller got the card, who pulled it, who has owned it previously, if it has been regraded, etc. etc. ) and frankly, I've probably saved a lot of money because i'm so obsessive/complulsive about it.

Trimming has gone on since card collecting has existed, even in the early 1900's when people wanted their cards to look as nice as possible, this isn't a new phenomenon.

Always, you need to educate yourself about card tampering and make your choices accordingly. If the possibility doesn't bother you, enjoy your hobby and don't stress about it.

For me, grading really doesn't do anything for me, cause I don't trust ANY grading company, and I have seen many examples in person of doctored cards being slabbed- that isn't new.

That's why I continue to preach- buy the card, not the grade.

The only way you know for sure the card hasn't been tampered with is if you pulled it yourself.

And that's another great reason to crack more wax! :lol:

bigalexx · Apr 5, 2009

Ian Stewart said:
flightposite said:

I know i've purchased three different Mauer 02 BC Gold Ref autos and got rid of them all as they were skinnier than the cards I know for a fact are not trimmed.

Click to expand...

If these cards were raw and not graded, did you disclose they were skinnier?

+1, if not, you were just as bad as the people who did the trimming themselves.

jcmint · Apr 5, 2009

rainmanesq said:
I think trimming’s a lot harder to detect now that more people are using the minimum grade option + raw card review. I’ve noticed a definite uptick in the # of cards getting rcred @ shows, being bounced for being trimmed + then being sold raw @ the show and/or on ebay.

As for graders not knowing whose cards they’re grading, that may be true if you mail in a sub, but I don’t think it’s true if you sub @ a show. @ certain shows, large subbers (+ well known alleged trimmers) sub their cards BEFORE the show even opens. Obviously if bgs only has say 5 subs, they’re going to know exactly who those subs belong to. There are 5 guys off the top of my head that I know do this @ just about every single major show. @ certain shows, dealers talk about whether the “hard grader” is there or when/if the “hard grader” is leaving the show early. @ certain shows, dealers are able to have the grader brought out + to haggle w/the grader over why the card isn’t a 9.5 or isn’t trimmed.

1 thing I have noticed is that bgs seems to be doing more “spot checking” on rcrs. There was a certain show last year where the “hard grader” left early + a ridonkulous # of 9.5s were handed out. when the dealers sent those cards into BGS to be slabbed, supposedly some of the 9.5s got LOWERED to 9s. I’ve also noticed that trimmers seem to be having a harder time getting their cards 9.5ed. however, they’ve started “filtering” their cards to bgs through other dealers as I suspect bgs may have “flagged” certain dealers as trimmers, so “mixing it up” tends to hide who the cards really belong to and in some cases, seems to up the # of 9.5s. I’ve also noticed bgs seems to be getting “harsher” w/those who bulk sub/play the “let me submit this 5-10x until it DOES 9.5” and “let me sub bump this” games.

Hang around enough shows + you’ll see/hear the same things along w/many other stories like how cards that 8.5 on Friday magically become 9.5s/10s by sunday.

Bottom line: I don’t think trimming is ridiculously high, but I think trimming/other questionable (excessive sub bumping; subbing cards 5-10x until they 9.5; rcr 8.5 on fri becomes 9.5/10 on sun.; etc.) behavior is rising + is more prevalent than most people think.

Hey Jen, I have been to my fair share of bgs shows. I have never saw a grader come out to talk about a grade. Those guys are like the wizards behind the curtains. With Joe at the counter he is not gonna let anyone disrupt the graders like that. I pretty much can guarentee that. before Joe I am sure this could have happened. bgs are not dummies they will take the trimmers subs all day long at rcr shows. I have seen it personally, I have also watched their long sad pathetic faces when they get the results. Every card is not trimmed they are filtered in there. I think they do a pretty good job at picking them out. I will agree with you about bulkers %'s. I think a guy who sends 20 cards under a 10/10/10 will do better.

200lbhockeyplayer · Apr 5, 2009

First, I believe that trimming is fairly rampant in this hobby. In both modern and vintage cards, we are seeing it and it is not a new phenomenon. In regards to modern cards, I have a few 800ct boxes of singles stored solely from a specific year of Bowman Chrome Draft and there is not a even the slightest variance in size, so the fact that BGS has a size variation allowance for this is a joke. When O-Pee-Chee singles from the 70's and 80's are being slabbed by BGS with perfectly clean edges you know a non-factory knife was involved, no matter the size of the card. But then again, their entire business income structure is based on grading fees and almost nothing else. Grading is pure profit.

Second, BGS and PSA know far more about who is submitting the cards than we assume. And at shows, the fact that some graders will interact with some submitters after being "called out" to discuss a grade is a fairly disgusting, yet common practice. And there are some well-known trimmers that still submit cards under their own names...even though a large percentage are rejected. Beckett gladly takes any and all submissions...because every customer is a paying customer.

Third, grade "bumping" is a all about the money...on both ends. The submitter can often "throw money at the problem" area and get it corrected. The company can take all of the money and budge just a bit to bump the card over the line...and still feel like they are doing their job.

Finally, grading is subjective and has a huge human element. And where there are humans with money, there is a huge influence.

It all comes down to greed...from the grading companies and the submitters. And frankly, I've never been a fan of greed.

rainmanesq · Apr 5, 2009

gregbara said:
Austin said:

rainmanesq said:

I’ve also noticed that trimmers seem to be having a harder time getting their cards 9.5ed. however, they’ve started “filtering” their cards to bgs through other dealers as I suspect bgs may have “flagged” certain dealers as trimmers, so “mixing it up” tends to hide who the cards really belong to and in some cases, seems to up the # of 9.5s.

Click to expand...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought BGS graders do not know who each submission is from. The customers are supposedly kept anonymous.

Click to expand...

That is what I have heard from more than one or two people close to the BGS graders. When the order comes in it gets a number, and that is all that is attached to the cards. They do not know who's it is. Its a check in both directions, as it ensure that you not going to get a friends order and Pristine them all, and also prevents grading cards on a grudge.

There are certain shows where certain bulk subbers submit BEFORE the show is open to ANYONE else. If only say 5 subbers sub BEFORE everyone else, it’s really not that hard to figure out whose sub it is. dealers have told me they were told their Rcrs would take longer b/c they’re working on ___________’ sub.

rainmanesq · Apr 5, 2009

jcmint said:
rainmanesq said:

I think trimming’s a lot harder to detect now that more people are using the minimum grade option + raw card review. I’ve noticed a definite uptick in the # of cards getting rcred @ shows, being bounced for being trimmed + then being sold raw @ the show and/or on ebay.

As for graders not knowing whose cards they’re grading, that may be true if you mail in a sub, but I don’t think it’s true if you sub @ a show. @ certain shows, large subbers (+ well known alleged trimmers) sub their cards BEFORE the show even opens. Obviously if bgs only has say 5 subs, they’re going to know exactly who those subs belong to. There are 5 guys off the top of my head that I know do this @ just about every single major show. @ certain shows, dealers talk about whether the “hard grader” is there or when/if the “hard grader” is leaving the show early. @ certain shows, dealers are able to have the grader brought out + to haggle w/the grader over why the card isn’t a 9.5 or isn’t trimmed.

1 thing I have noticed is that bgs seems to be doing more “spot checking” on rcrs. There was a certain show last year where the “hard grader” left early + a ridonkulous # of 9.5s were handed out. when the dealers sent those cards into BGS to be slabbed, supposedly some of the 9.5s got LOWERED to 9s. I’ve also noticed that trimmers seem to be having a harder time getting their cards 9.5ed. however, they’ve started “filtering” their cards to bgs through other dealers as I suspect bgs may have “flagged” certain dealers as trimmers, so “mixing it up” tends to hide who the cards really belong to and in some cases, seems to up the # of 9.5s. I’ve also noticed bgs seems to be getting “harsher” w/those who bulk sub/play the “let me submit this 5-10x until it DOES 9.5” and “let me sub bump this” games.

Hang around enough shows + you’ll see/hear the same things along w/many other stories like how cards that 8.5 on Friday magically become 9.5s/10s by sunday.

Bottom line: I don’t think trimming is ridiculously high, but I think trimming/other questionable (excessive sub bumping; subbing cards 5-10x until they 9.5; rcr 8.5 on fri becomes 9.5/10 on sun.; etc.) behavior is rising + is more prevalent than most people think.

Click to expand...

Hey Jen, I have been to my fair share of bgs shows. I have never saw a grader come out to talk about a grade. Those guys are like the wizards behind the curtains. With Joe at the counter he is not gonna let anyone disrupt the graders like that. I pretty much can guarentee that. before Joe I am sure this could have happened. bgs are not dummies they will take the trimmers subs all day long at rcr shows. I have seen it personally, I have also watched their long sad pathetic faces when they get the results. Every card is not trimmed they are filtered in there. I think they do a pretty good job at picking them out. I will agree with you about bulkers %'s. I think a guy who sends 20 cards under a 10/10/10 will do better.

Maybe it’s just @ certain shows joe, but I’ve seen it happen on more than 1 occasion (and no, it hasn't been w/joe that i've seen). @ nats, bgs has ‘sit down w/the graders’ for certain submitters- basically you get to sit down + ask the graders why your cards didn’t 9.5. I’ve seen certain alleged well known trimmers balk to the “front line” of certain grading cos. until a grader comes out.

jcmint · Apr 5, 2009

jen that is not gonna happen when Joe is around. I know that much. It is really the way it should be.

200lbhockeyplayer · Apr 5, 2009

jcmint said:
200lbhockeyplayer said:

...

And at shows, the fact that some graders will interact with some submitters after being "called out" to discuss a grade is a fairly disgusting, yet common practice.

...

Click to expand...

Just curious as to how this is fact. You have seen this personally. I am always around the BGS booths at rcr shows because of my friendship with an employee and I never not once saw this happen. I have personally seen 2 trimmers get the subs back on different occasions and have a real crappy look on their face. Of course they know the trimmers by now. If it were my company I would take their subs to why not they are a business after all. If they are dumb enough to keep subbing then its on them.

I have indeed seen it personally.

Of specific cases...at the larger LA Naxcom shows, at the National in Anaheim a few years back, and at least two Sun-Times shows in Chicago.

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