Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (Greatest Player of All-Time?)

Today's profile at http://therion.today.com is up. Today features Sadaharu Oh, wrapped in greatness and haunted by controversy.

As always comments and suggestions are encouraged.

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

Great read as always. I am going to disagree though. Matsui use to slug out 50 HRs a season in Japan. Now he cant hit 30. Sudaharu Oh defiantly was a great playuer but imo doesnt compare to the greats. If he played here in America and put up those numbers then my opinion would change. Unfortunaly we will never find out

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

Good way to start the day, nice read

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

colts1888 said:

Great read as always. I am going to disagree though. Matsui use to slug out 50 HRs a season in Japan. Now he cant hit 30. Sudaharu Oh defiantly was a great playuer but imo doesnt compare to the greats. If he played here in America and put up those numbers then my opinion would change. Unfortunaly we will never find out

Click to expand...

One-armed homeruns, dude. Which modern or past American players do you know that are capable of this?

We give Babe Ruth full credit eventhough he played against watered-down competition. (Meaning he pretty much played exclusively against whites)

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

Great read. Do you know what the success rate is for Oh signing from that address.

Thanks

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

17ROCKIES12 said:

Great read. Do you know what the success rate is for Oh signing from that address.

Thanks

Click to expand...

67%

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

Therion said:

colts1888 said:

Great read as always. I am going to disagree though. Matsui use to slug out 50 HRs a season in Japan. Now he cant hit 30. Sudaharu Oh defiantly was a great playuer but imo doesnt compare to the greats. If he played here in America and put up those numbers then my opinion would change. Unfortunaly we will never find out

Click to expand...

One-armed homeruns, dude. Which modern or past American players do you know that are capable of this?

We give Babe Ruth full credit eventhough he played against watered-down competition. (Meaning he pretty much played exclusively against whites)

Click to expand...

He also did it with a hot dog in hand, cigar in mouth, and a gut full of beer :lol:

Comparing guys who never played in the same time/conditions is like apples and oranges (if not more of a stretch).

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

Card Magnet said:

Therion said:

colts1888 said:

Great read as always. I am going to disagree though. Matsui use to slug out 50 HRs a season in Japan. Now he cant hit 30. Sudaharu Oh defiantly was a great playuer but imo doesnt compare to the greats. If he played here in America and put up those numbers then my opinion would change. Unfortunaly we will never find out

Click to expand...

One-armed homeruns, dude. Which modern or past American players do you know that are capable of this?

We give Babe Ruth full credit eventhough he played against watered-down competition. (Meaning he pretty much played exclusively against whites)

Click to expand...

He also did it with a hot dog in hand, cigar in mouth, and a gut full of beer :lol:

Comparing guys who never played in the same time/conditions is like apples and oranges (if not more of a stretch).

Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to question Ruth but rather using the same argument against Ruth that he used against Oh. Dismissing Oh because he played in Japan is silly.

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

Therion said:

17ROCKIES12 said:

Great read. Do you know what the success rate is for Oh signing from that address.

Thanks

Click to expand...

67%

Click to expand...

thanks

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

While I don't dismiss Oh's stats, I can't put them into the discussion with any MLB stats, especially when his record has been contested by numerous MLB castaways. In fact, each and every attempt to beat his record fell short due to the players not getting a pitch.

The Japanese home-run record will always be held by Oh, and you can pretty much write it in stone...and therefore I can't lend too much credence to the validity of it, nor can I project any comparisons with MLB's past and present.

Was Oh a great player? Absolutely.

Greatest ever worldwide? Nope.

Re: Player Profile: Sadaharu Oh (The Great Player of All-Time?)

A much more well thought-out argument but I still present how likely one of his hits was to generate a run. Is there a comparable player across any league that played for any significant amount of time?

Also, dismissing stats because of location is not really fair due to the era. The first Asian allowed to play in the MLB was Masanori Murakami in 1964, half a decade after Oh's career began. It isn't like Oh just made the decision to play in Japan. It was really his only choice. We don't hold it against Ruth that he only played against whites.

if your going to say oh is the greatest of all time.....take a look at my sig, a guy that never got to play in the bigs because he died days before the color barrier was broken.

KOBEARODLT said:

if your going to say oh is the greatest of all time.....take a look at my sig, a guy that never got to play in the bigs because he died days before the color barrier was broken.

Click to expand...

Realize that I'm not saying everyone else sucks. And I'm only saying he's "possibly" the greatest. There are many great players in history that are never considered in the argument. I love this stuff because I present someone as the greatest ever and most people reading this have never even heard of him.

Thinking outside of Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, etc is a good thing and I think Gibson does deserve a spot in that conversation.

KOBEARODLT said:

if your going to say oh is the greatest of all time.....take a look at my sig, a guy that never got to play in the bigs because he died days before the color barrier was broken.

Click to expand...

+1

I am more inclined to put ***** Leaguers in the "greatest of all time" discussion than Japanese leaguers. I am not saying Oh wouldnt have been a HOFer but it would have been nice to see him play against Major League Talent. ***** Leaguers while obviously denied access to thje MLB did play against many of the best players in the MLB and many people who saw him play considered him the best hitter period.

While Oh was undoubtedly a great talent, I don't know that it's fair to enter him into the discussion of greatest player of all time. Keep in mind Oh was not only playing in an entirely different environment, but also the period during which he played. Japanese baseball was in its relative infancy during much of Oh's career. The talent pool, skill, and knowledge of the game there was likely significantly inferior to that seen in the Japanese league today. It would be like a superstar developing out of the relatively young Korean leagues today. While they may have a great amount of skill, their talent and numbers will be inflated by the relative lack of experience and talent in the rest of the league. I believe I've read from various sources that the modern Japanese league is considered approximately a AAA equivalent league by scouts and talent evaluators. Presumably, the talent level some 40 years ago would have been closer to a high A level, or at best AA.

Also, in considering the 'greatest player' debate, I think it is important to take into account numerous tools. Players like Mays and Mantle displayed a blend of power, speed, and solid defense. Even a player like Ruth was both a standout pitcher and hitter. While my knowledge of Oh's career is relatively limited, it seemed he was a very good hitter power hitter, but didn't display the secondary skills that others have.

Oh was born in Tokyo, not China! Apparently his mother was Chinese though.

I wonder how well he would have been received in Japan had he been born in China/been a Chinese citizen.

I didn't realize Oh is Chinese. I had always assumed he was Japanese.

subject to change said:

While Oh was undoubtedly a great talent, I don't know that it's fair to enter him into the discussion of greatest player of all time. Keep in mind Oh was not only playing in an entirely different environment, but also the period during which he played. Japanese baseball was in its relative infancy during much of Oh's career. The talent pool, skill, and knowledge of the game there was likely significantly inferior to that seen in the Japanese league today. It would be like a superstar developing out of the relatively young Korean leagues today. While they may have a great amount of skill, their talent and numbers will be inflated by the relative lack of experience and talent in the rest of the league.

Click to expand...

This is what I have always said about Ty Cobb. He wasn't that good, it's just that the rest of the players really sucked.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh was Chinese. He was born in Japan but he was born a Chinese citizen.

Now, to try to address some of the points brought up. "Oh isn't great because his defense wasn't solid."

On what are you basing this? Back it up with numbers.

"Oh doesn't deserve to even be in this conversation."

Why not? Realize that Oh put up these impressive numbers in much shorter Japanese League seasons.

"Oh could have played in the US and chose not to."

This is dubious at best. Name ten Oriental players from 1959-1980 in the MLB. The problem is that Orientals were greatly discriminated against in America until WELL after the end of the Vietnam War.

Holding the league against Oh is unfair. He had little choice in the matter. Sure, it is possible he would have come here and sucked. It is equally possible that he could have come here and been legendary. Discounting facts because of conjecture is just a little strange.

My whole point is that there are great players that deserve to be in this conversation that we never even consider.

*bump to keep the debate going*