It's time we get a new stat for pitchers!

matfanofold · Aug 2, 2009

I think it's time someone starts to track and provide statistics as to what kind of run support a pitcher is getting. Sure, we track W's and L's, K's and BB's, but what we really need is RS per 9. Thats right, we need to know what kind of run support they are getting!

Look at it this way, lets say we have 2 pitchers..

1. 20-6 with 278 K's 2.94era

2. 18-8 with 278 K's 2.94era

All else being equal, but pitcher 1 has a 4.3 runs per 9 average of support, where pitcher 2 has a 2.2 runs per 9 average of support. Who do you think is a better, more desserving pitcher?

I hope some day the RS/9 will be as common and important as W's and L's when judging a pitcher.

your thoughts?

blitzerlover · Aug 2, 2009

Identical ERAs?

bigalexx · Aug 2, 2009

blitzerlover said:
Identical ERAs?

+1

matfanofold · Aug 2, 2009

Yep, "all else being equal".

Pinbreaker · Aug 2, 2009

Randy Johnson went thru that when he was with the M's.. He would pitch great, but get no run support..

Last few years Washburn had the same..

scotty21690 · Aug 2, 2009

matfanofold said:
I think it's time someone starts to track and provide statistics as to what kind of run support a pitcher is getting. Sure, we track W's and L's, K's and BB's, but what we really need is RS per 9. Thats right, we need to know what kind of run support they are getting!

Look at it this way, lets say we have 2 pitchers..

1. 20-6 with 278 K's 2.94era

2. 18-8 with 278 K's 2.94era

All else being equal, but pitcher 1 has a 4.3 runs per 9 average of support, where pitcher 2 has a 2.2 runs per 9 average of support. Who do you think is a better, more desserving pitcher?

I hope some day the RS/9 will be as common and important as W's and L's when judging a pitcher.

your thoughts?

I'm sorry but if they have identical WHIP, ERA, K's, QS, BB's, etc.....then I have to give it to the 20 game winner, reguardless of run support....

matfanofold · Aug 2, 2009

Pinbreaker said:
Randy Johnson went thru that when he was with the M's.. He would pitch great, but get no run support..

Last few years Washburn had the same..

This is kinda my point. without knowing what kind of run support a pitcher is getting, we are only getting half the true story. What if it turned out that Cy Young was getting 6+ runs of support per game, where Nolan Ryan was getting only 1.9? Would it not add definition to there respective carears?

matfanofold · Aug 2, 2009

scotty21690 said:
matfanofold said:

I think it's time someone starts to track and provide statistics as to what kind of run support a pitcher is getting. Sure, we track W's and L's, K's and BB's, but what we really need is RS per 9. Thats right, we need to know what kind of run support they are getting!

Look at it this way, lets say we have 2 pitchers..

1. 20-6 with 278 K's 2.94era

2. 18-8 with 278 K's 2.94era

All else being equal, but pitcher 1 has a 4.3 runs per 9 average of support, where pitcher 2 has a 2.2 runs per 9 average of support. Who do you think is a better, more desserving pitcher?

I hope some day the RS/9 will be as common and important as W's and L's when judging a pitcher.

your thoughts?

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but if they have identical WHIP, ERA, K's, QS, BB's, etc.....then I have to give it to the 20 game winner, reguardless of run support....

So...

Everything being equal, you would rather take the pitcher who needed 2x the run support than someone he was marginally better than with only half the run support? I respect your opinion, but could you please elaborate on why? I am quite interested in hearing your logic on this!

J.O. · Aug 2, 2009

john danks last year

Rickzcards · Aug 2, 2009

J.O. said:
john danks last year

Johan Santana every year.

i43770 · Aug 2, 2009

matfanofold said:
scotty21690 said:

matfanofold said:

I think it's time someone starts to track and provide statistics as to what kind of run support a pitcher is getting. Sure, we track W's and L's, K's and BB's, but what we really need is RS per 9. Thats right, we need to know what kind of run support they are getting!

Look at it this way, lets say we have 2 pitchers..

1. 20-6 with 278 K's 2.94era

2. 18-8 with 278 K's 2.94era

All else being equal, but pitcher 1 has a 4.3 runs per 9 average of support, where pitcher 2 has a 2.2 runs per 9 average of support. Who do you think is a better, more desserving pitcher?

I hope some day the RS/9 will be as common and important as W's and L's when judging a pitcher.

your thoughts?

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but if they have identical WHIP, ERA, K's, QS, BB's, etc.....then I have to give it to the 20 game winner, reguardless of run support....

Click to expand...

So...

Everything being equal, you would rather take the pitcher who needed 2x the run support than someone he was marginally better than with only half the run support? I respect your opinion, but could you please elaborate on why? I am quite interested in hearing your logic on this!

I have to agree with Scotty on this one. If they both had an ERA that was same, it wouldn't matter how many run support they get. If one player had an ERA over a run less, but had half as many wins, you may be able to make an argument. Like was mentioned about Randy Johnson, he had so many wins on bad offensive teams because he was such a dominating pitcher. That is why so many good pitchers on great offensive teams look better than they are, they get the run support so they don't have to have as low as an ERA.

Frow · Aug 2, 2009

Outside of stat nuts no one really cares or understand the signifigance.....that's why we have baseball-reference

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... &year=2009

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... &year=2009

bradical · Aug 2, 2009

This sounds like a stat for Tim Lincecum or Felix Hernandez to list on their resume.

aw00d05 · Aug 2, 2009

If this was the situation I'd agree with you:
Pitcher A: 22-6 3.85ERA 4.8RPG
Pitcher B: 17-12 2.75ERA 2.3RPG

scotty21690 · Aug 2, 2009

aw00d05 said:
If this was the situation I'd agree with you:
Pitcher A: 22-6 3.85ERA 4.8RPG
Pitcher B: 17-12 2.75ERA 2.3RPG

Yep!

aw00d05 · Aug 2, 2009

scotty21690 said:
aw00d05 said:

If this was the situation I'd agree with you:
Pitcher A: 22-6 3.85ERA 4.8RPG
Pitcher B: 17-12 2.75ERA 2.3RPG

Click to expand...

Yep!

Basically B would be Haren and Johan and A would be Wakefield if he didn't get injured.

Brett Keith · Aug 2, 2009

The most popular stat on the sites I frequent is FIP(Fielding Independent Pitching). Here's a LINK to an explanation on FanGraphs.com. Here's a LINK to the major league leaderboard.

cowboysrule48 · Aug 2, 2009

matfanofold said:
scotty21690 said:

matfanofold said:

I think it's time someone starts to track and provide statistics as to what kind of run support a pitcher is getting. Sure, we track W's and L's, K's and BB's, but what we really need is RS per 9. Thats right, we need to know what kind of run support they are getting!

Look at it this way, lets say we have 2 pitchers..

1. 20-6 with 278 K's 2.94era

2. 18-8 with 278 K's 2.94era

All else being equal, but pitcher 1 has a 4.3 runs per 9 average of support, where pitcher 2 has a 2.2 runs per 9 average of support. Who do you think is a better, more desserving pitcher?

I hope some day the RS/9 will be as common and important as W's and L's when judging a pitcher.

your thoughts?

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but if they have identical WHIP, ERA, K's, QS, BB's, etc.....then I have to give it to the 20 game winner, reguardless of run support....

Click to expand...

So...

Everything being equal, you would rather take the pitcher who needed 2x the run support than someone he was marginally better than with only half the run support? I respect your opinion, but could you please elaborate on why? I am quite interested in hearing your logic on this!

Your logic really makes no sense. If everything is identical, why would the other pitcher be penalized because he pitches for a better team? It is no different than the W/L thing, runs scored is not dependent on the pitcher. If all stats are equal, I think it is more important to look at the quality of competition. Obviously someone who pitches in the AL East is more deserving than someone with identical numbers that pitches in the AL Central.

Frow · Aug 2, 2009

cowboysrule48 said:
matfanofold said:

scotty21690 said:

matfanofold said:

I think it's time someone starts to track and provide statistics as to what kind of run support a pitcher is getting. Sure, we track W's and L's, K's and BB's, but what we really need is RS per 9. Thats right, we need to know what kind of run support they are getting!

Look at it this way, lets say we have 2 pitchers..

1. 20-6 with 278 K's 2.94era

2. 18-8 with 278 K's 2.94era

All else being equal, but pitcher 1 has a 4.3 runs per 9 average of support, where pitcher 2 has a 2.2 runs per 9 average of support. Who do you think is a better, more desserving pitcher?

I hope some day the RS/9 will be as common and important as W's and L's when judging a pitcher.

your thoughts?

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but if they have identical WHIP, ERA, K's, QS, BB's, etc.....then I have to give it to the 20 game winner, reguardless of run support....

Click to expand...

So...

Everything being equal, you would rather take the pitcher who needed 2x the run support than someone he was marginally better than with only half the run support? I respect your opinion, but could you please elaborate on why? I am quite interested in hearing your logic on this!

Click to expand...

Your logic really makes no sense. If everything is identical, why would the other pitcher be penalized because he pitches for a better team? It is no different than the W/L thing, runs scored is not dependent on the pitcher. If all stats are equal, I think it is more important to look at the quality of competition. Obviously someone who pitches in the AL East is more deserving than someone with identical numbers that pitches in the AL Central.

That logic isn't any better. Any team can win on any given day as well as a ton of other variables that are just thrown out the window.. Let's take Wakefield for example because he demonstrates the point of this thread perfectly. We should give him a nod as a superior pitcher because he's in the AL East? Do you know how many times he's faced an AL East team. Four....four whole times. 24% of all his starts this year are against them and half of those were against sub .500 teams (toronto).

Even their ace, Beckett, has faced the AL East less than half of his starts (9) and three of those were against Baltimore. BTW in those 6 other starts his team scored 35 runs for just under 6 runs per game.

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