Question about 1997 Donruss Limited Exposure.

I know there is supposedly a lot of controversy on exactly how many of these exist but my question is...does everyone agree there are at least more than 40 sets?I ask because I know for Bagwell...these things seem to pop up a lot.Not so much that I can prove that they number more than 40(or 30...whatever it is rumored to be numbered to)but lets just say that if they are indeed this low...I have a hard time understanding why they pop up so much as opposed to other inserts from that time period.There are even other inserts that are higher numbered that don't pop up as much.It seems odd that out of all of them...these are the most or one of the most common.That doesn't add up.

And why does Wolverine seem to always have them?Does he have a stash of them somewhere?That also seems kind of odd.

My hypothesis:

There really were only < 40 of the star factor ones released in product. The excess we see now were factory replacements that were either backdoored or bought out after they started releasing extra inventory.

I remember you posting about this within the '90s thread a few times.

Yes there are more than 40 Star Factor LE sets but there is probably one or two players that are SPed. Probably the same percentage of extras were produced here as with the '97 Mirrors maybe more.

I think Wolverine got D&As extras they couldn't sell after D&A bought the extras from Donruss (who had bought them from Pinnacle).

i remember me posting about this in the nineties thread too it is excess from dacardworld that they bought out and yes, at least one bagwell seems to pop up a week, however ask the frank thomas collectors if they even found theirs and the answer is likely a no. I still want to say i saw more than 40 of the bagwell star facter l.e. in dacardworlds beckett store.

I also remember them in the Beckett store It was ridiculous to see 20-30 copies of some of the cards they had there, sometimes more. Its possible that someone nabbed all of the Thomas cards all at once.

n1astrosfn said:

i remember me posting about this in the nineties thread too it is excess from dacardworld that they bought out and yes, at least one bagwell seems to pop up a week, however ask the frank thomas collectors if they even found theirs and the answer is likely a no. I still want to say i saw more than 40 of the bagwell star facter l.e. in dacardworlds beckett store.

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n1astrosfn said:

i remember me posting about this in the nineties thread too it is excess from dacardworld that they bought out and yes, at least one bagwell seems to pop up a week, however ask the frank thomas collectors if they even found theirs and the answer is likely a no. I still want to say i saw more than 40 of the bagwell star facter l.e. in dacardworlds beckett store.

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Forgive me guys...I have a skewed memory.

I was thinking there had to be more than 40.But my question now is...how many more.Like n1astrosfn said...the Bagwells pop up quite a lot.I wonder how many Pinnacle created as backups?It couldn't be double the supposed print run could it?Even so that isn't a lot.It would be if we are just considering they were replacements.I am not sure too many companies create a double print run, one to distribute and one to hold.I know Topps may on the refractors of very low numbers(i.e. the red Alex Cassilia) but I would like to think this isn't so for things numbered higher than about 25.

But the thing is...you are still only looking at 80 cards.

And you(n1astrosfn) say you remember seeing more than 40 in D&A's store.So did they have all the replacements and then some normal pack pulled cards or were those just replacements?Obviously you can't give a definite answer(or maybe you can) but it would seem really weird for them to print more replacements than the actual print run of the card.

I guess to narrow it down...how many replacements were made and is or was it common to make more replacements than the actual number of pack pullable cards?

EDIT: Nice sig by the way.

uniquebaseballcards said:

I also remember them in the Beckett store It was ridiculous to see 20-30 copies of some of the cards they had there, sometimes more. Its possible that someone nabbed all of the Thomas cards all at once.

n1astrosfn said:

i remember me posting about this in the nineties thread too it is excess from dacardworld that they bought out and yes, at least one bagwell seems to pop up a week, however ask the frank thomas collectors if they even found theirs and the answer is likely a no. I still want to say i saw more than 40 of the bagwell star facter l.e. in dacardworlds beckett store.

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Yeah but there should still have been a few that surfaced out of packs.And what would somebody do with all the replacement cards?It would seem at least some of those would have surfaced for the Thomas collectors.

i pulled a star factor mcgwire limited exposure in 1997. i spoke with the customer service & they told me that there were only 36 of each packed out.

Wow, I didn't know Thomas was that tough to find. I know I have one somewhere. Thomas must have been one of the 'SPed' ones then - the language said 'less than 40 sets produced', so I assumed that meant a bunch of most cards were produced and one or two (like the Thomas?) were SPed.

Edit: I didn't see springfieldisotope's post, maybe there weren't SPs then...

predatorkj said:

uniquebaseballcards said:

I also remember them in the Beckett store It was ridiculous to see 20-30 copies of some of the cards they had there, sometimes more. Its possible that someone nabbed all of the Thomas cards all at once.

n1astrosfn said:

i remember me posting about this in the nineties thread too it is excess from dacardworld that they bought out and yes, at least one bagwell seems to pop up a week, however ask the frank thomas collectors if they even found theirs and the answer is likely a no. I still want to say i saw more than 40 of the bagwell star facter l.e. in dacardworlds beckett store.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Yeah but there should still have been a few that surfaced out of packs.And what would somebody do with all the replacement cards?It would seem at least some of those would have surfaced for the Thomas collectors.

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springfieldisotopes4 said:

i pulled a star factor mcgwire limited exposure in 1997. i spoke with the customer service & they told me that there were only 36 of each packed out.

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So the Mac would be an SP? But that doesn't explain why others seem to be so prevalent.I have to assume that they made a whole slew of replacements which makes me wonder how many actual replacements were made.

Another thing that gets my goat is when companies supposedly release a set amount into the hobby yet they actually hold some back.If they hold them back with no intent of releasing them unless one of the released cards comes back damaged...then the print run is off.

Example would be like if Topps released 120 of the 2007 David Price bowman blue refractors(I am not even sure this card exists but I am using it as an example) which are supposedly numbered to 150.So if nobody ever calls about one of them being messed up or say only 10 people call about pulling a fudged up card...then the remaining cards are to be destroyed correct?So there really aren't 150 of them out there.

Is that how it works?I don't know and it seems like every release is different.I know a board member had 7 of the Alexi Cassillia Red Refractors.And somebody else had another one so 8 cards out of a #'d/5 print run were found.My only guess is that these extras were released in the form of replacements for other cards that were damaged and it was a big goofup because with something that low numbered...you don't really want to do that.It may have even been posted a while back...I just don't remember how it was resolved or if Topps actually made a statement that we all got to hear.I simply can't remember.The replacements should only go for cards that are the same exact card if that low numbered.But then that leads me to the question of whether or not Topps likes to play this game with higher numbered cards.Say they release 150 blue refractors of David Price but nobody calls in for a replacement or only a few people do and then they just decide since there are so many out there...why not use the extras nobody apparently needs as replacements for other cards people ARE calling about.And with so many out there...who would know right?

Makes you wonder if that is what happened with the Limited Exposure.Maybe I am reading into it too much but after what n1astrosfn says...I think its is possible.But that also leaves open the question of exactly how many replacements of one particular card were made.Why would you make more than the supposed print run?

i dont know why they would have made a slew of replacements for a card with a pring run of 36, worst case scenario they would only have to replace 36 of em. also found a frank thomas/derreck lee rookies 7 stars limited exposure. in 1997 the mac booked 600 & the thomas 400, & for some strange reason i didnt sell em. also found a ken griffey jr/ rondell whits counterparts limited exposure


Also i think that some of the cards were notated limited exposure & werent actually "refractors" they were just like the base cards.

Right, the non-refractor-like cards are the 'non-glossy' version.

springfieldisotopes4 said:

i dont know why they would have made a slew of replacements for a card with a pring run of 36, worst case scenario they would only have to replace 36 of em. also found a frank thomas/derreck lee rookies 7 stars limited exposure. in 1997 the mac booked 600 & the thomas 400, & for some strange reason i didnt sell em. also found a ken griffey jr/ rondell whits counterparts limited exposure


Also i think that some of the cards were notated limited exposure & werent actually "refractors" they were just like the base cards.

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uniquebaseballcards said:

I remember you posting about this within the '90s thread a few times.

Yes there are more than 40 Star Factor LE sets but there is probably one or two players that are SPed. Probably the same percentage of extras were produced here as with the '97 Mirrors maybe more.

I think Wolverine got D&As extras they couldn't sell after D&A bought the extras from Donruss (who had bought them from Pinnacle).

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I agree with this line of thinking.

The Manny Ramirez star factor seems very similar to the 97 pinnacle mirror gold, both in value and quantity produced (ie, 50-75 ballpark). The value on the star factor is probably less...but one a week has been popping up lately on ebay. I have a couple already so unless it's gem mint I let it slide. If extras were produced with the intent of being replacements, but then the packed out cards have a lot of value...you have to think those things would either grow legs and hit the market from an employee or show up when the company goes under.

It seems different companies have different policies. I know someone who just got a damaged Jason Heyward bowman chrome blue refractor RC in a pack and sent in to Topps and got a new one with a different serial #...so that means not 100% was packed out. However I tried to get upper deck to replace some 2008 heroes Manny jersey cards that were #'d /5 and /25 (that were produced with creases in them...bummer) they said that they had no replacements available. I also have a 2004 Fleer authentix standing room only Manny Ramirez... these were serial numbered in gold on the back- I have #4/5 with real gold serial # on the back.. But I also have one that has "2/5" handwritten on the back! I assume it was a replacement for a damaged and real #2/5, but who knows? I assume donruss and FLeer made un-serialed cards of some inserts to use as replacements...

predatorkj said:

Forgive me guys...I have a skewed memory.

I was thinking there had to be more than 40.But my question now is...how many more.Like n1astrosfn said...the Bagwells pop up quite a lot.I wonder how many Pinnacle created as backups?It couldn't be double the supposed print run could it?Even so that isn't a lot.It would be if we are just considering they were replacements.I am not sure too many companies create a double print run, one to distribute and one to hold.I know Topps may on the refractors of very low numbers(i.e. the red Alex Cassilia) but I would like to think this isn't so for things numbered higher than about 25.

But the thing is...you are still only looking at 80 cards.

And you(n1astrosfn) say you remember seeing more than 40 in D&A's store.So did they have all the replacements and then some normal pack pulled cards or were those just replacements?Obviously you can't give a definite answer(or maybe you can) but it would seem really weird for them to print more replacements than the actual print run of the card.

I guess to narrow it down...how many replacements were made and is or was it common to make more replacements than the actual number of pack pullable cards?

EDIT: Nice sig by the way.

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theres exactly 212 of the bagwells out there. i kid, seriously i stopped speculating about prints runs after seeing all the surplus in d&a's beckett store. not sure why there would be so many bagwells and no thomas. also not sure if they were replacements or pack pulled by them (if they were pulled they shoulda also had surplus of the "fabric of the game" inserts which were numbered, but they didnt) sorry i cant help anymore.

thanks. it is a nice sig all 8 of his '90 minor league issues. should squeeze in the 2 '88s

I've only seen two of the Jeter Star Factor Limited Exposures pop up in the last 3 years and they came from the collections of two huge Jeter collectors selling off their collection. I hope there were less than 40 made.

uniquebaseballcards said:

I remember you posting about this within the '90s thread a few times.

Yes there are more than 40 Star Factor LE sets but there is probably one or two players that are SPed. Probably the same percentage of extras were produced here as with the '97 Mirrors maybe more.

I think Wolverine got D&As extras they couldn't sell after D&A bought the extras from Donruss (who had bought them from Pinnacle).

Click to expand...

Yup.

It's funny I had not seen any Walkers since I started collecting him (about 4 years) then I get a PM that there is one on Beckett, there was just one, then a week later Wolverine has one and then the next week another and then another the week after. But that is all I've seen, four in total. Not sure about the print run but I've seen less of these than the 97 mirror golds.

I own two of the Thomases...picked them up on Beckett Market Place...I've only seen one on eBay in the last couple of years.

uniquebaseballcards said:

Right, the non-refractor-like cards are the 'non-glossy' version.

springfieldisotopes4 said:

i dont know why they would have made a slew of replacements for a card with a pring run of 36, worst case scenario they would only have to replace 36 of em. also found a frank thomas/derreck lee rookies 7 stars limited exposure. in 1997 the mac booked 600 & the thomas 400, & for some strange reason i didnt sell em. also found a ken griffey jr/ rondell whits counterparts limited exposure


Also i think that some of the cards were notated limited exposure & werent actually "refractors" they were just like the base cards.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Oddly enough they are even on the Beckett checklist.

carrsallstars said:

uniquebaseballcards said:

I remember you posting about this within the '90s thread a few times.

Yes there are more than 40 Star Factor LE sets but there is probably one or two players that are SPed. Probably the same percentage of extras were produced here as with the '97 Mirrors maybe more.

I think Wolverine got D&As extras they couldn't sell after D&A bought the extras from Donruss (who had bought them from Pinnacle).

Click to expand...

I agree with this line of thinking.

The Manny Ramirez star factor seems very similar to the 97 pinnacle mirror gold, both in value and quantity produced (ie, 50-75 ballpark). The value on the star factor is probably less...but one a week has been popping up lately on ebay. I have a couple already so unless it's gem mint I let it slide. If extras were produced with the intent of being replacements, but then the packed out cards have a lot of value...you have to think those things would either grow legs and hit the market from an employee or show up when the company goes under.

It seems different companies have different policies. I know someone who just got a damaged Jason Heyward bowman chrome blue refractor RC in a pack and sent in to Topps and got a new one with a different serial #...so that means not 100% was packed out. However I tried to get upper deck to replace some 2008 heroes Manny jersey cards that were #'d /5 and /25 (that were produced with creases in them...bummer) they said that they had no replacements available. I also have a 2004 Fleer authentix standing room only Manny Ramirez... these were serial numbered in gold on the back- I have #4/5 with real gold serial # on the back.. But I also have one that has "2/5" handwritten on the back! I assume it was a replacement for a damaged and real #2/5, but who knows? I assume donruss and FLeer made un-serialed cards of some inserts to use as replacements...

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. There is a possibility they actually released all of the stated print run but printed up extra copies for replacements. The only problem is that no matter how you slice it...unless they sent you the same exact card with the same exact number on the back...you have a problem. The problem being that if you do ever decide to sell that card(and being a prospect I would imagine at some point and time it will be moved since I wouldn't think too many people actually collect prospects) now you have two cards floating around out there that have the same exact serial number and both are legit but won't be seen that way.

I almost wish they would just not do replacements.I know that sounds harsh but it really takes the word "scarcity" away.If Ferrari wants to produce a new model of cars and only wants to make 40 and one dude buys one and wrecks it...tough luck.Now there are only 39.Obviously its a wee bit different but the point still remains that it can create confusion and, in the case of the card companies, poor planning about replacements or actually replacing a particular card can cause the print run to become compromised.Especially in the case of something low numbered.


As far as the cards we are talking about...I can only assume that the cards we are seeing pop up so much are the replacements.I so seriously doubt Wolverine or anyone else has a huge stash of pack pulled versions.If they were really so short printed...the likelihood that somebody stashed a bunch is low.Not impossible but pretty low.The only question left is how many actually exist in the market and that may be something we can never piece together.