Welcome to our community

Be apart of something great, join today!

Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated offensively?

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

Topnotchsy

Featured Contributor, The best players in history?
Aug 7, 2008
9,446
170
No time to write up my whole argument, but based on value to a team, it seems to be he is very overrated. All his most impressive stats seem to be based on metrics that do not really show value to his team (like BA as opposed to OBP.)

Not saying he's not a great player...

Would love to hear what people think.
 

darocker80

New member
Aug 7, 2008
15,534
0
Lincecum Land
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Overrated, nope. MLB record hits in a season. Won MVP and ROY same season. 9 straight seasons of GG, AS, 200+hits (record). Tons of SB.
 

bigredmachine

New member
Dec 16, 2009
381
0
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Can you imagine him playing on a team that had a dedicated fanbase unlike Seattle.
 

HoustonTeams4Me

New member
Sep 9, 2008
4,249
0
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Not overrated in the least...I'd say he's a first ballot HOF'er (just my opinion though) :D
 

gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
38,660
3,246
Near Philly
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Absolutely not.

It's NOT his fault that other batters go to Seattle and hit career-worst slumps. Heck, Beltre was a super-dud in Seattle and he looks like a HOFer in Boston. The list of guys Seattle brought in, from overseas or as FAs, is pretty long and they've all disappointed.

And he's GREAT on defense, which isn't really measurable either.
 

sportscardtheory

Active member
Aug 16, 2008
8,461
2
Buffalo, New York
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

I don't think he is overrated. The ONLY thing he doesn't do well is extra-base hits and drive in runs, which isn't his job to do. He is above average in every single category besides the ones I mentioned, including defensively.
 

TomMurry

New member
Jan 30, 2010
6,776
0
Eastern PA
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

One of the 5 best OF arms in the last 60 years
Hi average
constantly contributes
steals loads of bases
moves runners over often
covers half of CF and all of RF
Hits to ALL parts of the field at will

Feel free to note where any of that leads to being overrated.
 

pigskincardboard

New member
Nov 4, 2009
5,444
0
Toronto
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Sure, I'll bite. Ichiro is overrated; he's not a god, just a hall of famer.

Hits are obviously more valuable than BB in that they'll move a runner over from first to possibly third. In the case of the runner not occupying first, they'll often score him. Just how valuable is the question -- *hits* also lead to the potential of double plays, etc.

So yah, Ichiro's probably overrated if you're one of the people that think hits, batting average and pitching-wins is the determining factor.

I think if we would've seen the 24-27 years of Ichiro's playing career, I may have had a different opinion.
 

Brett Keith

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
3,634
0
Peoria, IL
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Nah. He's above average or better defensively in RF or CF, with a fantastic arm. Even at his age, he still has great speed and usually has very high percentages for stealing bases. Also, he's the most gifted player I've ever seen when it comes to what he can do with the bat. He's a hitter, taking close pitches and drawing BB's don't score runners and don't get him 2B's and 3B's, he takes advantage of his skill set to the fullest. Sure, a few more BB's would be nice, but it's really nitpicking, because he's one of the best all-around baseball players I've ever seen. He's also a cool ass dude.
 

Sly

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
2,874
0
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

So his OBP isn't "very good"...is that what you're saying?

He is 24th among active players in OBP...I'd say that's pretty good.

The guy doesn't have the power that most "great" players do, but there is more to baseball than power.

He gets on base (#24 among active players)
He steals bases (#7 among active players)
Scores 100 runs a season (#24 among active players in runs scored)
He doesn't ground in double plays (only 45 times in 9+ seasons)

So he doesn't hit for power. He doesn't have a lot of extra base hits, but that's made up for his ability to steal bases.

Let's also not forget that this doesn't even take into account his tremendous defense.

I'm really curious as to the argument for him being over-rated. No offense, but you can't really start a thread like this without backing it up. You REALLY should have started this when you had the time to put a reasonable argument together...give us all something to counter your thoughts, especially considering I'd bet that 95% of the people here don't think he's overrated.
 

HoustonTeams4Me

New member
Sep 9, 2008
4,249
0
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Brett Keith said:
Nah. He's above average or better defensively in RF or CF, with a fantastic arm. Even at his age, he still has great speed and usually has very high percentages for stealing bases. Also, he's the most gifted player I've ever seen when it comes to what he can do with the bat. He's a hitter, taking close pitches and drawing BB's don't score runners and don't get him 2B's and 3B's, he takes advantage of his skill set to the fullest. Sure, a few more BB's would be nice, but it's really nitpicking, because he's one of the best all-around baseball players I've ever seen. He's also a cool ass dude.


I think the underlined statement is what makes Ichiro so easy to like as a player & a person. He's great at his job (baseball) & he's a good person ta boot (probably one of, if not, the most modest & humble player's to step on the field & that's HUGE considering his skill-set & production, as he could get away with being a huge ******* but yet still chooses to be the person he is today)! :D
 

pigskincardboard

New member
Nov 4, 2009
5,444
0
Toronto
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Sly said:
So his OBP isn't "very good"...is that what you're saying?

He is 24th among active players in OBP...I'd say that's pretty good.

The guy doesn't have the power that most "great" players do, but there is more to baseball than power.

He gets on base (#24 among active players)
He steals bases (#7 among active players)
Scores 100 runs a season (#24 among active players in runs scored)
He doesn't ground in double plays (only 45 times in 9+ seasons)

So he doesn't hit for power. He doesn't have a lot of extra base hits, but that's made up for his ability to steal bases.

Let's also not forget that this doesn't even take into account his tremendous defense.

I'm really curious as to the argument for him being over-rated. No offense, but you can't really start a thread like this without backing it up. You REALLY should have started this when you had the time to put a reasonable argument together...give us all something to counter your thoughts, especially considering I'd bet that 95% of the people here don't think he's overrated.

Well, I completely agree with your statement. If you view Ichiro in the paradigm of a .333 lifetime average hitter, it's quite different than viewing him through just about any other metric. Let's not forget that this guy is getting almost 750 PA a year.

As I said, HOF not hitting jesus.
 

donrusscrusademan

New member
Sep 2, 2009
3,511
0
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

best outfielder last decade. nobody else has the combo of arm, vision, speed/range, wall skills

also best contact hitter in the last 10 years. I dont know what more you could ask from the guy.. that plus 40 HRs a year? dream on :lol:


to decide if someones overrated one would first have to look at their current rating. right now the average fan doesnt even have him in the top 20. they will take the biggest mashers and a few pitchers. if anything you could argue he is underrated.

who else has been Japan, MLB and World MVP?
 

madbull34

Well-known member
Sep 10, 2009
1,081
425
San Diego, CA
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

No way! If he keeps it up for a few more years he'll be in the HOF for sure. He's a leadoff hitter. His job is to get on base. No need to hit bombs when nobody is on base. That's what cleanup hitters do.
 

Vagrant

New member
May 2, 2009
839
0
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

I think that if you consider him one of the greatest of all time, then certainly he is overrated. Only defensively do I consider him to be one of the best ever to play the game.

I think it's all about how you define success in an at bat. If success is reaching first base then OBP should be your go to stat. Walks also help to take pitches off of a pitcher's arm, so there is value there. I know that a hit has the chance to move runners more than one base where a walk does not, but I consider that a marginal benefit to a degree.

At the plate, Ichiro's high batting average is a deceptive statistic as well as his hit numbers. What it proves is GREAT hand eye coordination. It makes me wish that Ichiro had gone through the minor leagues in America in order to learn plate discipline because he EASILY could have been a .400 hitter had he learned to only swing at the pitches he could do good things with. As I said, he probably has the greatest ability to put the bat on the ball in major league history, but that does not make a successful at bat. Putting the ball in play is only half the battle.

I think people that are all over Ichiro are the guys that aren't really into the new statistical measures of players and like the meat and potatoes cut and dry version of hits, batting average, and stolen bases telling you all you need to know about a player of his type. Especially the hits and batting average marks. The truth about Ichiro is that his approach is terrible, always has been terrible, and will forever be terrible. He aggressively chases pitches that the all time greats wouldn't even check at and it costs him better pitches in hitters counts.

It's the reason that players like Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, and Ty Cobb will always be the best hitters in history to me. I excluded Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds simply because those guys never had much to hit so their walks were more a result of "picking your poison", not that it didn't take a certain amount of restraint to not chase.

It all boils down to this. You have to be talented to hit for a high average. You have to be smart to have a ridiculous OBP. Ichiro could have been so much more had he refined his approach. I think he could have been right there with Ted Williams had he been blessed with the restraint to wait for his pitches.

With that said, history tends to remember slap hitters fondly. Tony Gwynn will always be revered as a hitter more than Wade Boggs, despite Boggs not being a free swinging pitch chaser.

I will go to battle with OBP every day of the week as an evaluation tool over BA for the success rate of a hitter.
 

chompsmcgee

New member
Jan 24, 2010
1,349
0
Phoenix, AZ
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

You'll be hard pressed to find people on the baseball boards who whole-heartedly agree with you, top. The guy is flat out amazing. He's one of the few guys whose approach to every facet of the game is a true form of art. A rare 5-tool player, and if you've ever caught him taking BP you'd know he has some legitimate pop.

I would LOVE to see Ichiro in a home-run derby. Ahhh, wishful thinking...
 

sportscardtheory

Active member
Aug 16, 2008
8,461
2
Buffalo, New York
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

chompsmcgee said:
You'll be hard pressed to find people on the baseball boards who whole-heartedly agree with you, top. The guy is flat out amazing. He's one of the few guys whose approach to every facet of the game is a true form of art. A rare 5-tool player, and if you've ever caught him taking BP you'd know he has some legitimate pop.

I would LOVE to see Ichiro in a home-run derby. Ahhh, wishful thinking...

I wouldn't say he's a 5-tool player. He doesn't hit for power when it counts. He's easily one of the best 4-tool players in baseball history, which is no knock on him. Babe Ruth was basically a 4-tool talent as well, and he's one of the top-3 players of all-time, if not the best.
 

hive17

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
21,426
24
Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

After watching him throw that frozen rope the other night, he's one of the ONLY people in baseball that I've watched for so long that can still amaze me all of a sudden.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top