BGS grading opinions wanted

clubhouse sports · Jul 21, 2010

Hey guys what's up? I talked to a friend of mine about BGS who was at the Chicago show this weekend. I'm sure we all know this goes on but I wanted to bring it to attention and get opinions.

He submitted a two Montana RCs HIMSELF a few times and they kept coming back restored. In addition, he submitted a few colored chrome autos of higher end prospects and could never get gems. He met up with a friend of his at the show, and submitted all the same cards including the Montanas under his friends name. Of course they get an 8.5 and 9.5 on the Montanas, and over 70% 9.5s on the colored parallels.

To me, this is INCREDIBLY concerning and has been going on way too long. Yes, most of us including me, do raw card review and don't always get the 9s slabbed and obviously the RCR results don't go into the pop report. In addition many of us have grading deals where only the GEMs or Pristines get slabbed.

I'm starting to really get sick of this. a BGS 9.5 isn't the same as it was before. They are so easy and depending on who yo are or how much you submit (evidenced above) is really watering down the market. I am really starting to think there should be NO MORE RCR, and EVERYTHING should get slabbed so it can be recorded in the POP report.

Do you think it hurts sales when people check pop report and see that over 90% of cards in POP are 9.5 and 10 in most cases?

A GREAT example of this is Dominic Brown elites and contenders. It's an INCREDIBLY high ratio of 9.5s on SUPER condition sensitive cards.

I know it's a great feeling getting a high percentage of gems and some pristines, but don't you think ultimately this is really hurting the prices in the long run?

Opinions and answers welcome!

daveyou · Jul 21, 2010

only thing that registered is that one of two montana rc (topps im assuming) came back a bgs 9.5...

cha-ching~

dave

muchuckwagon · Jul 21, 2010

clubhouse sports said:
Do you think it hurts sales when people check pop report and see that over 90% of cards in POP are 9.5 and 10 in most cases?

A GREAT example of this is Dominic Brown elites and contenders. It's an INCREDIBLY high ratio of 9.5s on SUPER condition sensitive cards.

I know it's a great feeling getting a high percentage of gems and some pristines, but don't you think ultimately this is really hurting the prices in the long run?

The population report does not reflect the true ratio of 9.5's compared to other grades for a particular card...even more so when you consider condition sensitive cards.

First, people are more selective in terms of the cards they have graded today. Why? Well, the economy is down and the return on graded card sales has declined over the last five years.

Second and most importantly, many people choose not to have cards placed in a slab if it doesn't achieve a minimum grade - many times that minimum grade is a 9.5. This factor alone distorts the ratio of 9.5's compared to other grades.

Finally, the quality of cards (chrome) straight from the pack has increased over the years. Yes, some sets are plagued by centering or surface scratches but overall the quality of chrome cards has improved.

clubhouse sports said:
He submitted a two Montana RCs HIMSELF a few times and they kept coming back restored. In addition, he submitted a few colored chrome autos of higher end prospects and could never get gems. He met up with a friend of his at the show, and submitted all the same cards including the Montanas under his friends name. Of course they get an 8.5 and 9.5 on the Montanas, and over 70% 9.5s on the colored parallels.

This is a story....and no different than Clint telling me about the three-way he had with Paris Hilton and Britney Spears in Vegas. It is true or not? Who knows...and it is difficult to comment without seeing the cards or the girls.

From time-to-time, there are accusations of favoritism on the part of BGS. Yes, BGS does make mistakes but if you search eBay it would appear 99.9999% of the graded cards have been assigned the "appropriate" grade based on the defined criteria.

Keep in mind, it is not in the best interest of BGS to throw garbage into their slabs. Why? It is their reputation for quality that drives the sales of their grading services. If their reputation declines, so will the premium BGS cards demand on ebay or other venues. If that happens, people will stop grading cards because a significant portion of grading is done to boost the sale value of a card.

hofmichael · Jul 21, 2010

BGS has been a joke for a while now.They grade sheet cut grades consistently.A 9.5 hasn't meant **** in years.

clubhouse sports · Jul 21, 2010

First of all MUCHUCKWAGON, do you think I would make this up and just decide to make a post on here about it? No it is NOTHING like a story you are saying. Maybe you are a little dillusional and need a doctor yourself with that kind of analogy.

The owner is a friend of mine so yes it is a true story. And you think the economy is why people aren't sending more cards in? Do you or any of us have ANY idea how many cards get RCR at a show and how many never get slabbed?

You missed my whole point of the topic but thanks for the 5th grade remark.

cgilmo · Jul 21, 2010

Why do people have to view even a rational disagreement as an attack?

WJCIII · Jul 21, 2010

hofmichael said:
BGS has been a joke for a while now.They grade sheet cut grades consistently.A 9.5 hasn't meant shat in years.

Maybe the least thought-out statement I've ever read.

nyc3 · Jul 21, 2010

cgilmo said:
Why do people have to view even a rational disagreement as an attack?

Because everyone is always wrong when you think you are right.

leatherman · Jul 21, 2010

cgilmo said:
Why do people have to view even a rational disagreement as an attack?

I know, right?

Besides, the way I heard the story, it was Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan.

f2tornado · Jul 21, 2010

hofmichael said:
BGS has been a joke for a while now.They grade sheet cut grades consistently.A 9.5 hasn't meant shat in years.

Sheet cuts are the main knock on BGS but when you get right down to it every damn card is/was sheet cut. Some of these just happened to be cut before going into packs. I have graded over 1000 cards with BGS (no sheet cuts) and about 90% of my submitted cards come back as expected. Most of the remaining 10% come back lower but I will get the occasional upside surprise. Perhaps two or three of these out of a thousand cards submitted not deserving. A .997 BA is not bad. I only wish BGS had a clearly advertised buyback offer should you get stuck buying one of the three-tenths of one percent cards graded too high.

aaron41984 · Jul 21, 2010

Grading is a human process. There will be error. I'd still rather have a nice permanently protected slabbed card over the raw counterpart all day long.

All The Hype · Jul 21, 2010

nyc3 said:
cgilmo said:

Why do people have to view even a rational disagreement as an attack?

Click to expand...

Because everyone is always wrong when you think you are right.

And because being objective to actually try to gain a better understand of the topic at hand is a phenomenon that only makes sense to about 2% of all people.

matfanofold · Jul 21, 2010

When it comes to graded cards, I have one simple rule comprised of 6 simple to understand words.

"Buy the card not the grade"

This is my philosophy, and I enjoy graded cards this way. More so for the protection, but still enjoy when a grade actually represents whats locked inside. Now I know this does not reflect anything from the subers, or sellers point of view, but as a buyers point of view(where flipping is not your main principle), it's sound advice. But looking at it from a viewpoint as a profitier of grading, I would be very disgruntly with the state of graded material(s). The slew of high graded material, in the long run, only waters down the value of said material. But not only that, it also makes anything but high grade all but irrelevent(worthless). This trend will only work for the short term. Sure, subers are happy now because of all the 9.5's and 10's, it's making them money. But there will come a day, if nothing is to change, where the premium of a high graded card will be nill to a quality raw card. And when this happens, the trickle down effect will destroy the graded card business as a whole. If notihng, after taking your own perspective of condition, can distinguish a high graded card from a nice raw card, then what are we paying for really? This is a question, and ultimately the answer as to why grading as a whole has to return to the days where a card was graded according to it's condition soley, and leave out all variables that seem to be better for business. Because in the long run only two things keep grading alive(aside from protection) and that is #1. Simplifies the process of obtaining a card in a specific condition. #2 adds value. Once both of these inherent 'values' are compramised, as they are begining to be more so then ever before, it will be too late.

I think back to the day when PSA 7's, 8's, and 9's all were more valuable than a average raw copy. Heck, when BGS first came out, you were getting more for 8's and 8.5's than raw. Cards that were 9's or better were drawing large premiums and gems were off the charts! Today, nothing but BGS 9.5's or PSA 10 are even worth having (value wise) above and beyond raw, for most modern cards. That right there tells you something is wrong. If by some miracle PSA or BGS reads this, take this to heart. In the long run the continued sucess of your respective companies requires that the days of accurate and consistant grading be brought back. I, like many, see grading now like a crapshoot lottery. Without consistancy or validity. Which is sad, because I still remember the glory days when a PSA 8 was a quality card, and a BGS 9.5 or PSA 10 was a perfect card rarely seen.

schillingfan · Jul 21, 2010

matfanofold said:
When it comes to graded cards, I have one simple rule comprised of 6 simple to understand words.

"Buy the card not the grade"

This is my philosophy, and I enjoy graded cards this way. More so for the protection, but still enjoy when a grade actually represents whats locked inside. Now I know this does not reflect anything from the subers, or sellers point of view, but as a buyers point of view(where flipping is not your main principle), it's sound advice. But looking at it from a viewpoint as a profitier of grading, I would be very disgruntly with the state of graded material(s). The slew of high graded material, in the long run, only waters down the value of said material. But not only that, it also makes anything but high grade all but irrelevent(worthless). This trend will only work for the short term. Sure, subers are happy now because of all the 9.5's and 10's, it's making them money. But there will come a day, if nothing is to change, where the premium of a high graded card will be nill to a quality raw card. And when this happens, the trickle down effect will destroy the graded card business as a whole. If notihng, after taking your own perspective of condition, can distinguish a high graded card from a nice raw card, then what are we paying for really? This is a question, and ultimately the answer as to why grading as a whole has to return to the days where a card was graded according to it's condition soley, and leave out all variables that seem to be better for business. Because in the long run only two things keep grading alive(aside from protection) and that is #1. Simplifies the process of obtaining a card in a specific condition. #2 adds value. Once both of these inherent 'values' are compramised, as they are begining to be more so then ever before, it will be too late.

I think back to the day when PSA 7's, 8's, and 9's all were more valuable than a average raw copy. Heck, when BGS first came out, you were getting more for 8's and 8.5's than raw. Cards that were 9's or better were drawing large premiums and gems were off the charts! Today, nothing but BGS 9.5's or PSA 10 are even worth having (value wise) above and beyond raw, for most modern cards. That right there tells you something is wrong. If by some miracle PSA or BGS reads this, take this to heart. In the long run the continued sucess of your respective companies requires that the days of accurate and consistant grading be brought back. I, like many, see grading now like a crapshoot lottery. Without consistancy or validity. Which is sad, because I still remember the glory days when a PSA 8 was a quality card, and a BGS 9.5 or PSA 10 was a perfect card rarely seen.

Well said. You've been thanked.

muchuckwagon · Jul 21, 2010

clubhouse sports said:
Do you or any of us have ANY idea how many cards get RCR at a show and how many never get slabbed?

You missed my whole point of the topic but thanks for the 5th grade remark.

You missed the mark....my comments about the population report have nothing to do with the RCR. I made reference to people that elect not to have a card placed in a slab and returned without a slab if it doesn't meet their minimum grade requirements.

There are a significant number of people that use the minimum grade option...over the last 6 or 7 years I have seen it utilized and discussed countless times by FCB and BMB members. I have used it myself back in the days when I organized group BGS orders. It is hard to argue this does not have an impact on the ratio of 9.5's compared to other grades.

I have also watched first hand as many people who graded a significant volume of cards in the past get out of the game because of declining premiums for 9.5's or a slumping economy.

Finally, did you know that individuals that send in a significant volume of cards can get a substantial discount (unpublished rates) if they agree to only have a card that grades a 9.5 get slabbed and the rest returned without slabs?

This pricing structure is only available to high volume customers but the discounted rate blows away the $5 special.

Considering the volume it takes to get the discount, these types of orders impact the population report and keep lesser condition modern cards from appearing in the population report.

Finally, your story is just that...a story. There have been countless stories told on the FCB and the BMB....and it is funny on the story changes when you hear both sides...especially on eBay disputes.

I never said the events didn't unfold as you stated. However, it is difficult for anyone to comment on the occurrence without examining the cards. I did try to provide some additional commentary and point out it is not in the best interest of BGS to throw garbage in their slabs.

At the end of the day, all of this was lost on you because...as other pointed out...it was not what you wanted to hear and you felt the need to attack me despite stating - "Opinions and answers welcome!"

With that....I will pull out the classic tag line reserved for special people like you - GDIAF.

cgilmo · Jul 21, 2010

muchuckwagon said:
GDIAF.

ahhhh nostalgia

GAbballplayer148 · Jul 21, 2010

matfanofold said:
When it comes to graded cards, I have one simple rule comprised of 6 simple to understand words.

"Buy the card not the grade"

This is my philosophy, and I enjoy graded cards this way. More so for the protection, but still enjoy when a grade actually represents whats locked inside. Now I know this does not reflect anything from the subers, or sellers point of view, but as a buyers point of view(where flipping is not your main principle), it's sound advice. But looking at it from a viewpoint as a profitier of grading, I would be very disgruntly with the state of graded material(s). The slew of high graded material, in the long run, only waters down the value of said material. But not only that, it also makes anything but high grade all but irrelevent(worthless). This trend will only work for the short term. Sure, subers are happy now because of all the 9.5's and 10's, it's making them money. But there will come a day, if nothing is to change, where the premium of a high graded card will be nill to a quality raw card. And when this happens, the trickle down effect will destroy the graded card business as a whole. If notihng, after taking your own perspective of condition, can distinguish a high graded card from a nice raw card, then what are we paying for really? This is a question, and ultimately the answer as to why grading as a whole has to return to the days where a card was graded according to it's condition soley, and leave out all variables that seem to be better for business. Because in the long run only two things keep grading alive(aside from protection) and that is #1. Simplifies the process of obtaining a card in a specific condition. #2 adds value. Once both of these inherent 'values' are compramised, as they are begining to be more so then ever before, it will be too late.

I think back to the day when PSA 7's, 8's, and 9's all were more valuable than a average raw copy. Heck, when BGS first came out, you were getting more for 8's and 8.5's than raw. Cards that were 9's or better were drawing large premiums and gems were off the charts! Today, nothing but BGS 9.5's or PSA 10 are even worth having (value wise) above and beyond raw, for most modern cards. That right there tells you something is wrong. If by some miracle PSA or BGS reads this, take this to heart. In the long run the continued sucess of your respective companies requires that the days of accurate and consistant grading be brought back. I, like many, see grading now like a crapshoot lottery. Without consistancy or validity. Which is sad, because I still remember the glory days when a PSA 8 was a quality card, and a BGS 9.5 or PSA 10 was a perfect card rarely seen.

This reminded me about a BGS 9 Andy Marte Base Chrome I sold for $15 (in June 2005), and and 8.5 for around the same price. Good luck getting that for a base chrome (besides Stras or Harper) now in those conditions.

i43770 · Jul 21, 2010

My local shop is going to have BGS at their "Grand Opening", but will only be doing RCR. The shop owner is trying to get a deal set up if someone wants to get a card slabbed they get some kind of discount. I know that I will be taking a few cards in to get RCR'd, just to see what kind of grade they get.

As what has already been said, with the minimum grade requests, numbers are going to be skewered. Take a look at this pop report. If you think this minor league issued card from 1988 has a 50% chance of getting Gem, you are crazy.

I use to get cards graded through another shop that only paid 25 or 50 cents if a card didn't meet the minimum grade.

rookieaddict · Jul 22, 2010

I'll admit I send cards in with a group and utilize a minimum grade. I can understand how you feel that it is skewing the population report, there certainly is some impact. I'm confident that if they forced every card to be slabbed they would achieve two things:
1. Kill their business model and profit margins.
2. Not impact the grade distribution in the population reports.

People use the RCR and minimum grade options for cards they are on the fence about or can only justify the added cost if they meet a certain grade. I don't think people are trying to slide a bunch of 8.5's and lower in and hope they come back gem. I've submitted to BGS now 4 times. Each time my results have gotten better, not because I submitted more cards but because I've gotten better at judging my cards. A lot of the cards you're seeing in the population reports are submitted by people that have learned exactly what to look for.

Every time I submit I make a list of what I'm sure is a gem, what's really close, and what cards I'm throwing in to see if they stick. Inevitably, cards that I'm sure will gem don't. So I study those to see what I've missed so I know what to look for the next time. I'm currently putting a lot together to submit, and there are cards I've eliminated that I'm certain I would have submitted 2 submissions ago.

If they went to a slab only/no minimum grade system I would submit far less. It would probably limit me to just slabbing PC and select prospects I was able to get into really inexspensively. It's hard enough to get ahold of cards you like at a reasonable price, let alone pay someone to slap a 8.5 on it and reduce the value of the card.

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