Let's Debate! - Mauer

Wes and I have an ongoing argument regarding Joe Mauer. As you may have seen in his signature there is a quote from me where I stated I would take Skipworth over Posey and Santana [because he's most likely to stick at catcher]. Wes has also advised me NEVER to debate catcher's with him again. So, let's post it to the group.

The question: Does Joe Mauer belong with the elite position players in Major League Baseball?

I say unequivocally, absolutely yes. Up there with Tulo, Pujols, and all the other elites. Let's start with the premise.

Joe Mauer is currently 27 years old. I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen going forward so that isn't part of the argument. Mauer has played in six full seasons. He has won three batting titles (as a Catcher) something no one else has ever done. He's been to four All-Star games, won four silver slugger awards, three Gold Gloves, not to mention an MVP. Joe Mauer is currently 27 years old.

I'm not sure how you can even argue that he isn't right there among the greats. But let's throw all those "Hall of Fame" markings right out the window. See, whenever I say this stuff to Wes, he says, "Well, he's no Tulo, or Braun, or Hanley..." Wes also likes to completely ignore what a Catcher does for a game, how many times he impacts the baseball on both sides, and pretty much defense in general.

Let's remember that Mauer does all that while handling a pitching staff that generated two Cy Young awards and a bunch of 200 K seasons (not to mention he's led them to the playoffs every season). So, let's hear it. Does Mauer belong among the top talents in the game. Thoughts.....

I still say if I was starting a team today, I would take Mauer over any position player in the league, and that includes Pujols. But that's just me....

How many players are you considering "elite?" Your premise is that he's up there with the elite. Top 5 Top 10? I would have a hard time putting him in the top 10 even if we're only considering hitters. If pitchers are considered he's definitely not in my top 10

kdailey4315 said:

How many players are you considering "elite?" Your premise is that he's up there with the elite. Top 5 Top 10? I would have a hard time putting him in the top 10 even if we're only considering hitters. If pitchers are considered he's definitely not in my top 10

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We are only including position players and I would say the top ten. Remember, this has to do with all around game and how the player impacts his team and every game he plays in. Not just offense.

I would consider him an elite player. I still think Ruiz is the best catcher in Baseball though.

Other than one season, Mauer has done nothing that would make me consider him among the elite players in baseball. Even using his defense as part of that determination, his average and lack of k's are his best skills...


He's an elite catcher but other than a couple, thats not saying alot.

phillyfan0417 said:

Other than one season, Mauer has done nothing that would make me consider him among the elite players in baseball. Even using his defense as part of that determination, his average and lack of k's are his best skills...


He's an elite catcher but other than a couple, thats not saying alot.

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How do you explain three batting titles and an average of 178 hits for the past three seasons. The lowest single season .BA he's had has been .293 and he's led the league in WAR twice over that span. You can say what you want about WAR, but that's the whole point. He does this stuff as a CATCHER. That fact alone puts him in the elite.

sheetskout said:

phillyfan0417 said:

Other than one season, Mauer has done nothing that would make me consider him among the elite players in baseball. Even using his defense as part of that determination, his average and lack of k's are his best skills...


He's an elite catcher but other than a couple, thats not saying alot.

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How do you explain three batting titles and an average of 178 hits for the past three seasons. The lowest single season .BA he's had has been .293 and he's led the league in WAR twice over that span. You can say what you want about WAR, but that's the whole point. He does this stuff as a CATCHER. That fact alone puts him in the elite.

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You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that he's up there with the elite players then use the fact that he's a catcher to handicap him.

sheetskout said:

phillyfan0417 said:

Other than one season, Mauer has done nothing that would make me consider him among the elite players in baseball. Even using his defense as part of that determination, his average and lack of k's are his best skills...


He's an elite catcher but other than a couple, thats not saying alot.

Click to expand...

How do you explain three batting titles and an average of 178 hits for the past three seasons. The lowest single season .BA he's had has been .293 and he's led the league in WAR twice over that span. You can say what you want about WAR, but that's the whole point. He does this stuff as a CATCHER. That fact alone puts him in the elite.

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He's an elite catcher. As an elite catcher, there are many other players in the majors who are better all around players than Mauer.

Mauer is a great hitter but as an all around player, there is one season you can use.

You can take Mauer over Pujols to start a team if you want. The world is full of GM's/Owners who have made the wrong decision...

I'd take Cano over any of them.

Before this gets out of hand I'll clarify my claim. He is not one of the top ten players in baseball in my opinion. If there was an MLB redraft today I'm taking 10 maybe 20 players ahead of him.

Time will tell, as a catcher we'll see how long his body holds up. Then it's DH time, we'll see if the batting avg can hold up over the years. So far, so good for Twins fans.

sheetskout said:

kdailey4315 said:

How many players are you considering "elite?" Your premise is that he's up there with the elite. Top 5 Top 10? I would have a hard time putting him in the top 10 even if we're only considering hitters. If pitchers are considered he's definitely not in my top 10

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We are only including position players and I would say the top ten. Remember, this has to do with all around game and how the player impacts his team and every game he plays in. Not just offense.

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I believe our in our initial discussion I said top 10 players overall, including pitchers. That said I'll hold true to the claim even if it excludes pitchers. There are at least 10 position players I'd take over Mauer for a game today. They include:

Pujols
Miguel Cabrera
Tulowitzki
Hanley
Braun
Votto
Cano
Adrian Gonzalez
Crawford
Cargo

And I'm sure I'm missing some, but that's 10. TOTAL PACKAGE the offense and defense combo for those ten is greater than Mauer's in my opinion.

Without getting into who's in my top 10, I would say yeah I think he belongs there.

Probably at #10 though.

IMO, anyone who can hit .327, .347 or .365 at the MLB level can be on my team anytime.

Obviously Pujols would be a top choice for most people though, myself included.

Not a big fan of Mauer. I think he is overrated. I hate the way he bent the Twins over and screwed them on his contract. He is not a 8 year 184 million dollar player. Besides one year he has little power, not a big rbi guy. Defense is ok, but not great like many think. Post season he hasn't done squat other than puke all over himself like Joe Nathan. No big home runs.

If the MLB is drafting all over again, I would expect Joe Mauer to go third or fourth overall.

Behind Pujols and Tulo for sure, possibly Votto.

Joe Mauer is easily one of the best players in the game. He's EXTREMELY valuable to his team and would be on any team. I'm also throwing leadership and character ethics in the equation as well.

Miggy and Hanley are elite, but they are bottom rung when it comes to leadership qualities.

Im more suprised at the fact that Tulowitzki has jumped into so many peoples top 2-3 in the game.

matchpenalty said:

Not a big fan of Mauer. I think he is overrated - Nor am I, but how is a catcher that has 3 batting titles in five years, along with a MVP overrated?

I hate the way he bent the Twins over and screwed them on his contract. He is not a 8 year 184 million dollar player - Joe did not force the Twins to give him that contract. 23 million per year for the FACE of the Twins franchise was a no brainer. Just like the Yankees thru millions at Jeter, the Twins were not about to let Joe go. Cant fault the guy for getting his payday. **** hes a catcher, this is his one big contract in his life, good for him.

Besides one year he has little power, not a big rbi guy - 162 game average is 91 RBI's, whats wrong with that batting from the 3 spot?

Defense is ok, but not great like many think - Not sure I totally agree with this statement, can he throw a **** load of runners out? Nope. He has a total of 32 PB's and 21 E's in 728 games caught. I personally think that is pretty impressive with the guys he's had to catch for, ie. Santana and Liriano for instance.

Post season he hasn't done squat other than puke all over himself like Joe Nathan - .291 batting average the last two post-seasons. Impressive? 50/50 on that, but to say hes puked all over himself is a stretch.

No big home runs - You yourself said above, "besides one year he has little power" so what do you expect of him? :lol:

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My $.02 worth, I am not a fan of nor a hater of Mauer, however I do think hes a top 10-15 player year in and year out the past 5-6 years

sheetskout said:

phillyfan0417 said:

Other than one season, Mauer has done nothing that would make me consider him among the elite players in baseball. Even using his defense as part of that determination, his average and lack of k's are his best skills...


He's an elite catcher but other than a couple, thats not saying alot.

Click to expand...

How do you explain three batting titles and an average of 178 hits for the past three seasons. The lowest single season .BA he's had has been .293 and he's led the league in WAR twice over that span. You can say what you want about WAR, but that's the whole point. He does this stuff as a CATCHER. That fact alone puts him in the elite.

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It's because he doesn't hit the long ball. Everyone appears to ignore all other stats, if they don't hit the long ball, they suck! (Not my feelings)

prospectorgems said:

sheetskout said:

phillyfan0417 said:

Other than one season, Mauer has done nothing that would make me consider him among the elite players in baseball. Even using his defense as part of that determination, his average and lack of k's are his best skills...


He's an elite catcher but other than a couple, thats not saying alot.

Click to expand...

How do you explain three batting titles and an average of 178 hits for the past three seasons. The lowest single season .BA he's had has been .293 and he's led the league in WAR twice over that span. You can say what you want about WAR, but that's the whole point. He does this stuff as a CATCHER. That fact alone puts him in the elite.

Click to expand...

It's because he doesn't hit the long ball. Everyone appears to ignore all other stats, if they don't hit the long ball, they suck! (Not my feelings)

Click to expand...

He also doesn't steal bases or drive in runs. All of the other hitters mentioned bring a speed and power factor that Mauer doesn't. While he's great defensively, so are guys like Tulo, Pujols, Cargo etc. And they all bring much more offensively.

LLWesMan said:

prospectorgems said:

sheetskout said:

phillyfan0417 said:

Other than one season, Mauer has done nothing that would make me consider him among the elite players in baseball. Even using his defense as part of that determination, his average and lack of k's are his best skills...


He's an elite catcher but other than a couple, thats not saying alot.

Click to expand...

How do you explain three batting titles and an average of 178 hits for the past three seasons. The lowest single season .BA he's had has been .293 and he's led the league in WAR twice over that span. You can say what you want about WAR, but that's the whole point. He does this stuff as a CATCHER. That fact alone puts him in the elite.

Click to expand...

It's because he doesn't hit the long ball. Everyone appears to ignore all other stats, if they don't hit the long ball, they suck! (Not my feelings)

Click to expand...

He also doesn't steal bases or drive in runs. All of the other hitters mentioned bring a speed and power factor that Mauer doesn't. While he's great defensively, so are guys like Tulo, Pujols, Cargo etc. And they all bring much more offensively.

Click to expand...

Just for arguments sake, per baseballreference.com, over 162 game average, Mauer's RBI's are 91, Tulo's is 101, Mauer's SB's are 7, Tulo's are 12, that isnt a shitload of a difference between them. HRs on the other hand are, but Tulo gets to hit at Coors 81 games a year, Mauer has to hit at Target Field for those same 81 games, big big difference in those ballparks. Dont get me wrong, Tulo is a heck of a player, but not leaps and bounds above Mauer offensively IMO.

As for Cargo, besides last year, whats he done? In 302 and 278 at bats the previous 2 season, total of 55 RBI's. Thats Impressive!!! When he continues to put up last years numbers year after year, then I will be more impressed.