Anyone watch the Giants-Rockies? (scoring question)

Mighty Bombjack · Apr 19, 2011

I'm just back from Coors Field. The Giants look every bit the world champs and are taking the steam out of the Rockies hot start.

I always score games that I go to, and that often leads to some questions. Here's mine: who gets the error when the catcher throws to second in an attempt to catch a runner stealing, and said throw is a good one on line, but neither middle infielder is there to catch it? This happened in the bottom of the fifth today. Ty Wigginton stole second and went to third. Obviously an error, but on who?

My father, a veteran scorer, was there with me. He immediately said it is the catcher's error from a scorer's point of view, because he threw to no one, and we cannot know who was supposed to cover anyway. Upon looking at the "play by play" on espn.com, they agree, as the play says "T Wigginton to second, T Wigginton to third on throwing error by catcher B Posey." Whoever typed that in made the same judgment as my dad.

However, the boxscore itself on espn.com lists the sole error as "E: F Sanchez (1, catch)"

Anyone who watched on TV have any insights?

I love scoring games.

kdailey4315 · Apr 19, 2011

Announcers for the Giants said it's an error on Posey. Even though he threw a piss missile that was perfect it's still on him.

Mighty Bombjack · Apr 20, 2011

kdailey4315 said:
Announcers for the Giants said it's an error on Posey. Even though he threw a piss missile that was perfect it's still on him.

All the boxscores I can find list the error as Sanchez's

ThoseBackPages · Apr 20, 2011

Wigginton advanced to second on Ball Four, and then advanced to third on the miss catch error by the second baseman. That is the Official Scorers call as to who SHOULD have caught the throw.

it was actually a bad job by Posey for not realizing it was ball four

fkw · Apr 20, 2011

Usually a judgement call, but if it was a right handed batter then 2B should be covering and at fault, and a left handed batter SS should be covering and would be at fault. But the whole point that they didnt cover might have been a missed sign. On certain pitches (ie. fastball outside) they may flip flop the coverage. You would need to watch the middle infielders to see who makes the sign ..... usually holding glove in front of mouth area to block view and then showing an "open mouth" means I cover, "closed mouth" means you cover....
If it was a straight steal the catcher wouldnt be at fault, usually.

edited to say I didnt realize it was a ball4. but its still the middle infielders fault for being lazy and assuming... Posey is not the umpire and shouldnt wait to see what the call is, if its close fire away.

noragar · Apr 20, 2011

I didn't see the play, but as you described it, the error almost always goes to the person that threw the ball, although the scorer does have the right to make a judgment about who should have been covering and give the error there if he thinks it's appropriate. It just isn't normally done that way.

One minor nit-pick. The standard signal for who's covering is the reverse -

closed mouth = "I'm covering" (closed mouth as if saying "me")
open mouth = "You're covering" (round mouth as if saying "you")

fonda1119 · Apr 20, 2011

noragar said:
I didn't see the play, but as you described it, the error almost always goes to the person that threw the ball, although the scorer does have the right to make a judgment about who should have been covering and give the error there if he thinks it's appropriate. It just isn't normally done that way.

One minor nit-pick. The standard signal for who's covering is the reverse -

closed mouth = "I'm covering" (closed mouth as if saying "me")
open mouth = "You're covering" (round mouth as if saying "you")

I played 2B for a good 14 years and we always used the opposite.

Of course we used sexual connotations for understanding. Open mouth always meant "I'm taking it". Closed mouth meant "I'm not taking it" which inherently means "you're taking it."

Mighty Bombjack · Apr 20, 2011

Yeah, it was a walk and not a stolen base, which I should have stated in the OP because it changes things. There was one out and a full count, and Wigginton was moving from first on the pitch. The fact that it was ball four adds credence to the reaction that it was Posey's error, and it seems that Sanchez didn't bother to cover because he saw that the pitch was a ball. On the other hand, I agree with fkw that Posey cannot and should not wait for the umpire's call. If there had been two outs, Posey would know that a throw to second is useless. With the fact that there was only one out, if the ump had called this pitch strike three, than a CS at second would have ended the inning. Sanchez (or Fontenot) should have been covering. Tough call.

In the end, it is the scorer's judgment, but I think the error should have gone to Posey. It went to Sanchez.

I love the minutia of this game!

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Anyone watch the Giants-Rockies? (scoring question)

Mighty Bombjack

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kdailey4315

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