1998 Topps did pretty good predicting HOF!

Was going through insert sets and stumbled across this one. None of these guys were HOF at this point. Now a few of them were pretty obvious getting into the HOF, but there are some names here around the time of 1998 that they could've faltered, a la Andruw Jones, and been either a huge debate or no chance.

6 are already in the HOF. 5 are 1st ballot locks, IMO (Maddux, Griffey, Thomas, Piazza, and Unit). 3 should be in but will have to wait b/c of steroids (Bonds, Clemens, McGwire). And then there is Juan Gonzalez who I believe should be in if you are going to put guys like Bonds, Clemens, etc. in.

1998 Topps HallBound #HB1 Paul Molitor
1998 Topps HallBound #HB2 Tony Gwynn
1998 Topps HallBound #HB3 Wade Boggs
1998 Topps HallBound #HB4 Roger Clemens
1998 Topps HallBound #HB5 Dennis Eckersley
1998 Topps HallBound #HB6 Cal Ripken
1998 Topps HallBound #HB7 Greg Maddux
1998 Topps HallBound #HB8 Rickey Henderson
1998 Topps HallBound #HB9 Ken Griffey Jr.
1998 Topps HallBound #HB10 Frank Thomas
1998 Topps HallBound #HB11 Mark McGwire
1998 Topps HallBound #HB12 Barry Bonds
1998 Topps HallBound #HB13 Mike Piazza
1998 Topps HallBound #HB14 Juan Gonzalez
1998 Topps HallBound #HB15 Randy Johnson

I'm not sure about Gonzalez. If they put him in then they would need to vote in Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, and many other "fringe" candidates. Although I believe Martinez deserves to be in.

MOFNY said:

I'm not sure about Gonzalez. If they put him in then they would need to vote in Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, and many other "fringe" candidates. Although I believe Martinez deserves to be in.

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No reason why Jim Rice should be in and Juan Gonzalez shouldn't.

Then again, if I had it my way, neither would be in.

MOFNY said:

I'm not sure about Gonzalez. If they put him in then they would need to vote in Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, and many other "fringe" candidates. Although I believe Martinez deserves to be in.

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What a load of crap. The only player on your list that won either a home run title or an MVP award was Larry Walker who won one of each. Gonzalez won two of each. None of your players are close.

Gonzaleznut said:

MOFNY said:

I'm not sure about Gonzalez. If they put him in then they would need to vote in Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, and many other "fringe" candidates. Although I believe Martinez deserves to be in.

Click to expand...

What a load of crap. The only player on your list that won either a home run title or an MVP award was Larry Walker who won one of each. Gonzalez won two of each. None of your players are close.

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Edgar Martinez is the best designated hitter in the history of major league baseball. And to be considered eligible to be a Hall of Fame player you need "to be one of the best players at your position" for her entire career. Edgar Martinez made the designated hitter what it was. I dare you to name a better designated hitter. And I'm not talking about someone who was a first baseman or someone that was converted to designated hitter, I'm talking about someone who is a designated hitter from day one.

SydBarrett said:

Gonzaleznut said:

MOFNY said:

I'm not sure about Gonzalez. If they put him in then they would need to vote in Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, and many other "fringe" candidates. Although I believe Martinez deserves to be in.

Click to expand...

What a load of crap. The only player on your list that won either a home run title or an MVP award was Larry Walker who won one of each. Gonzalez won two of each. None of your players are close.

Click to expand...

Edgar Martinez is the best designated hitter in the history of major league baseball. And to be considered eligible to be a Hall of Fame player you need "to be one of the best players at your position" for her entire career. Edgar Martinez made the designated hitter what it was. I dare you to name a better designated hitter. And I'm not talking about someone who was a first baseman or someone that was converted to designated hitter, I'm talking about someone who is a designated hitter from day one.

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That's the problem with Martinez, he was an incomplete player. At least Gonzalez played in the field and to me that makes him much more valuable of a player. Being a DH hurts EM very much in voting.

morgoth said:

SydBarrett said:

Gonzaleznut said:

MOFNY said:

I'm not sure about Gonzalez. If they put him in then they would need to vote in Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, and many other "fringe" candidates. Although I believe Martinez deserves to be in.

Click to expand...

What a load of crap. The only player on your list that won either a home run title or an MVP award was Larry Walker who won one of each. Gonzalez won two of each. None of your players are close.

Click to expand...

Edgar Martinez is the best designated hitter in the history of major league baseball. And to be considered eligible to be a Hall of Fame player you need "to be one of the best players at your position" for her entire career. Edgar Martinez made the designated hitter what it was. I dare you to name a better designated hitter. And I'm not talking about someone who was a first baseman or someone that was converted to designated hitter, I'm talking about someone who is a designated hitter from day one.

Click to expand...

That's the problem with Martinez, he was an incomplete player. At least Gonzalez played in the field and to me that makes him much more valuable of a player. Being a DH hurts EM very much in voting.

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Edgar played third base.. He didn't become a fulltime DH until 1995..

Albert Belle was better then Martinez and Gonzalez by far!

Bornagaincollector said:

Albert Belle was better then Martinez and Gonzalez by far!

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I agree.

henderson939 said:

Bornagaincollector said:

Albert Belle was better then Martinez and Gonzalez by far!

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I agree.

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I will second this.

everyone says if Manny Ramirez was clean he would be a "lock"
..despite having a lot of less Abs, who has a higher WAR, Edgar or Ramirez??

thats right, because not playing the field isnt a penalty, its "0"(or a little more in EMs case because of his positive 3b war) other guys suck at fielding and cost tons of runs but fans will look the other way.

only 2 guys have a .3/.4/.5 batting line that are not in the hall- Edgar Martinez and Shoeless Joe.

Bornagaincollector said:

Albert Belle was better then Martinez and Gonzalez by far!

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"similar batters" (via baseball reference)

Willie Stargell, Hank Greenberg, Ralph Kiner.

thats a great group!

donrusscrusademan said:

Bornagaincollector said:

Albert Belle was better then Martinez and Gonzalez by far!

Click to expand...

"similar batters" (via baseball reference) -
Willie Stargell, Hank Greenberg, Ralph Kiner.

thats a great group!

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while Martinez and Belle are comparable in many ways, I cant put Juan-Gone in with them.

years with a WAR over 5.5

Belle- 3 (1539 game career)
Martinez-7 (2055 games)
Gonzalez-1 (1689 games)

donrusscrusademan said:

donrusscrusademan said:

Bornagaincollector said:

Albert Belle was better then Martinez and Gonzalez by far!

Click to expand...

"similar batters" (via baseball reference) -
Willie Stargell, Hank Greenberg, Ralph Kiner.

thats a great group!

Click to expand...

while Martinez and Belle are comparable in many ways, I cant put Juan-Gone in with them.

years with a WAR over 5.5

Belle- 3 (1539 game career)
Martinez-7 (2055 games)
Gonzalez-1 (1689 games)

Click to expand...

Yeah but how many years did each of them have at least a WAR of 5.478?

donrusscrusademan said:

donrusscrusademan said:

Bornagaincollector said:

Albert Belle was better then Martinez and Gonzalez by far!

Click to expand...

"similar batters" (via baseball reference) -
Willie Stargell, Hank Greenberg, Ralph Kiner.

thats a great group!

Click to expand...

while Martinez and Belle are comparable in many ways, I cant put Juan-Gone in with them.

years with a WAR over 5.5

Belle- 3 (1539 game career)
Martinez-7 (2055 games)
Gonzalez-1 (1689 games)

Click to expand...

Thanks for the Martinez love. Like I said, put Gonzalez in, but not before Martinez.

Gonzaleznut said:

MOFNY said:

I'm not sure about Gonzalez. If they put him in then they would need to vote in Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, and many other "fringe" candidates. Although I believe Martinez deserves to be in.

Click to expand...

What a load of crap. The only player on your list that won either a home run title or an MVP award was Larry Walker who won one of each. Gonzalez won two of each. None of your players are close.

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I like to look at stats and not awards. Dimaggio won two MVPs over Williams (many more examples exist) so I'm usually not that impressed by the award.

morgoth said:

SydBarrett said:

Gonzaleznut said:

MOFNY said:

I'm not sure about Gonzalez. If they put him in then they would need to vote in Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, and many other "fringe" candidates. Although I believe Martinez deserves to be in.

Click to expand...

What a load of crap. The only player on your list that won either a home run title or an MVP award was Larry Walker who won one of each. Gonzalez won two of each. None of your players are close.

Click to expand...

Edgar Martinez is the best designated hitter in the history of major league baseball. And to be considered eligible to be a Hall of Fame player you need "to be one of the best players at your position" for her entire career. Edgar Martinez made the designated hitter what it was. I dare you to name a better designated hitter. And I'm not talking about someone who was a first baseman or someone that was converted to designated hitter, I'm talking about someone who is a designated hitter from day one.

Click to expand...

That's the problem with Martinez, he was an incomplete player. At least Gonzalez played in the field and to me that makes him much more valuable of a player. Being a DH hurts EM very much in voting.

Click to expand...

What you say is true. However, I feel it shouldn't be that way. Pitchers aren't judged on the batting skills. The DH is a legitimate position. Every AL team has to have one, and it doesn't require fielding.

The other odd thing about the DH discussion is that no one ever says a great hitter shouldn't be in the Hall because his fielding was poor. There a many great hitters in the Hall that weren't great fielders. When people comparing players for consideration they almost never look at fielding stats. Why snub a DH for not fielding? Especially since it's not his job.

In some ways I see it like closers in pitching. It wasn't until recently that voters were ok with voting in closers. Prior they were seen as incomplete pitchers. Eventually I think voters start to vote in career DH types.

markakis8 said:

donrusscrusademan said:

years with a WAR over 5.5

Belle- 3 (1539 game career)
Martinez-7 (2055 games)
Gonzalez-1 (1689 games)

Click to expand...

Yeah but how many years did each of them have at least a WAR of 5.478?

Click to expand...

if you dont like the half-win then here is an even 5.0 WAR

Belle- 3
Martinez- 9
Gonzalez- 2

donrusscrusademan said:

markakis8 said:

donrusscrusademan said:

years with a WAR over 5.5

Belle- 3 (1539 game career)
Martinez-7 (2055 games)
Gonzalez-1 (1689 games)

Click to expand...

Yeah but how many years did each of them have at least a WAR of 5.478?

Click to expand...

if you dont like the half-win then here is an even 5.0 WAR

Belle- 3
Martinez- 9
Gonzalez- 2

Click to expand...

Comparing 162-game averages of these 3 players reveals quite a bit.

Player..........HR........RBI.......Hits........Runs
Belle............40........130......182.........103
Martinez.......24.........99.......177..........96
Gonzalez......42........135.......186.........102

uniquebaseballcards said:

donrusscrusademan said:

markakis8 said:

donrusscrusademan said:

years with a WAR over 5.5

Belle- 3 (1539 game career)
Martinez-7 (2055 games)
Gonzalez-1 (1689 games)

Click to expand...

Yeah but how many years did each of them have at least a WAR of 5.478?

Click to expand...

if you dont like the half-win then here is an even 5.0 WAR

Belle- 3
Martinez- 9
Gonzalez- 2

Click to expand...

Comparing 162-game averages of these 3 players reveals quite a bit.

Player..........HR........RBI.......Hits........Runs
Belle............40........130......182.........103
Martinez.......24.........99.......177..........96
Gonzalez......42........135.......186.........102

Click to expand...

the reason I use WAR is there is a little less framing imo... it looks at the whole thing.
when you get 100 walks per 162, youre going to get less AB/162 is going to be a lot less. still, 2 of them are clearly power hitters and one is not. its doubles/162 are on par with those players so I think we can rule out that hes a dinky singles hitter.