What is your updated TAKE on Jesus Montero?

[ballerskrip]

Now that Mr. Montero is getting every day at bats, what is your take on him?

Do some still think the next Miguel Cabrera? I will admit that I have not watched him much this year, so I would love to hear everyones thoughts thus far. Especially Mariners fans who have seen a majority of his at bats.

Current Stats:

BA - .260
HR - 8
RBI - 28
OBP - .297
Slug - .399

 

[jetsmets150]

Definitely a little disappointing. I don't see his upside as Cabrera, but I do see a .280 avg with 25 home runs hitter.

 

[mwashuc06]

He could be Billy Butler

 

[notjomommasclint]

Is it time to say I told you so? Née ner née ner? Can't miss they said.. Untradable they said.. Can't anchor the mariners lineup..

 

[ballerskrip]

He could be Billy Butler

What has he done this year that makes you say that? Billy Butler is a VERY good hitter, probably one of the most underrated in baseball.

 

[ThoseBackPages]

Playing everyday in the Major Leagues.

to me that is a pretty good life.

 

[James52411]

He's still got time to develop with that massive oppo power. As a baseball card, though, he's in trouble. Once the hype dies down, it's tough to get it back unless a player goes hog wild at the bat.

 

[Joshua.Roundtree]

bballkid and MudCatsFan....where you guys at?

Sorry fellas, I had to do this. Last year we couldn't go a day without a 'Montero is the best hitter ever' thread. And those two were definitely leading the charge.

I will give Montero this, he plays in Seattle which isn't exactly a hitter's paradise. He would have put up much better numbers if he got to hit at Yankee Stadium 81 times a year. His opposite field power is tremendous for a player his age and that short porch would have done wonders for him.

 

[Mudcatsfan]

...........and you knew i'd reply. I have watched lots of his at-bats, and yes i absoutley still have every faith that he will be a .300 hitter with power, and to be honest, his performance thus far has been excellent considering how young he is (22), and how much they were forced to have him catch with Olivo went down.

To the 'can't anchor the Mariners lineup comment', its pretty well accepted that you're going to hit better in a strong lineup than one where the pitcher fears nobody.

Earlier in the year he had a ridiculous split where he was hitting .200 as a DH and .400 as a Catcher. Then he was forced into full time catching duty and his overall numbers turned up a bit. I just checked the splits and it still holds true:

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[TR]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: left"]Split[/TH]
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]CS[/TH]
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SO[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]BA[/TH]
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[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]OPS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]TB[/TH]
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SF[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]IBB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]ROE[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]BAbip[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]tOPS+[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]sOPS+[/TH]
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[TD="align: left"]as DH[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"][/TD]
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[TD="align: right"].276[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I fully expect as the weather turns warmer in Seattle that it will help him, but the fact of the matter is, Adrian Beltre was a great hitter for years in LA, He is now a GREAT hitter in Texas. And he was a terrible terrible hitter for 4 years in Seattle. That ballpark KILLS power hitters.

The good news is, Montero is a great hitter who happens to have power. He'll figure it out, and in that park, maybe he's more Edgar Martinez than Miggy Cabrera.

Did anyone see his return to Yankee Stadium? He flipped an oppo home run into the bleachers in right and let everyone know that could have been his signature move.

So yeah, a 22 year old thrust into a starting catching situation, is actually hitting .322 and slugging .517. As a DH.....not so much.

 

[Joshua.Roundtree]

...........and you knew i'd reply. I have watched lots of his at-bats, and yes i absoutley still have every faith that he will be a .300 hitter with power, and to be honest, his performance thus far has been excellent considering how young he is (22), and how much they were forced to have him catch with Olivo went down.

To the 'can't anchor the Mariners lineup comment', its pretty well accepted that you're going to hit better in a strong lineup than one where the pitcher fears nobody.

Earlier in the year he had a ridiculous split where he was hitting .200 as a DH and .400 as a Catcher. Then he was forced into full time catching duty and his overall numbers turned up a bit. I just checked the splits and it still holds true:

[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table"]
[TR]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: left"]Split
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]G
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]GS
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]PA
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]AB
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]R
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]H
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]2B
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]3B
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]HR
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]RBI
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SB
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]CS
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]BB
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SF
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]IBB
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]ROE
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]BAbip
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[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]tOPS+
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]sOPS+
[/TH]
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[TD="align: left"]as DH
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[TD="align: right"]36
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I fully expect as the weather turns warmer in Seattle that it will help him, but the fact of the matter is, Adrian Beltre was a great hitter for years in LA, He is now a GREAT hitter in Texas. And he was a terrible terrible hitter for 4 years in Seattle. That ballpark KILLS power hitters.

The good news is, Montero is a great hitter who happens to have power. He'll figure it out, and in that park, maybe he's more Edgar Martinez than Miggy Cabrera.

Did anyone see his return to Yankee Stadium? He flipped an oppo home run into the bleachers in right and let everyone know that could have been his signature move.

So yeah, a 22 year old thrust into a starting catching situation, is actually hitting .322 and slugging .517. As a DH.....not so much.

At least you used actual facts to back your argument, well done. Figured it wouldn't take too long to hear from at least one of you guys

Those are some interesting splits. A lot of players (Adam Dunn for one) have had a hard time adjusting to not being position players. It took him a full year to get comfortable with DHing. I remember when Pat Burrell played for the Rays, he was totally lost for 1 1/2 years as a DH and didn't turn it around until he went back to SF and began playing the field again.

 

[Mudcatsfan]

OH, and his Defense has been getting great reviews from his manager. He's thrown out 3 of his last 5 to get his CS% up to a playable 21%

OH AND HE CALLED A NO-HITTER with 6 different pitchers

 

[JEBJJA]

I'd still rather have him than Russ Martin...and an injured Pineda.

 

[James52411]

Mudcats fan, I agree he's still young and has plenty of time to develop, but he hasn't proven that he's a "great hitter" yet. As the kids say nowadays, slow your roll.

 

[Mudcatsfan]

At least you used actual facts to back your argument, well done. Figured it wouldn't take too long to hear from at least one of you guys

Those are some interesting splits. A lot of players (Adam Dunn for one) have had a hard time adjusting to not being position players. It took him a full year to get comfortable with DHing. I remember when Pat Burrell played for the Rays, he was totally lost for 1 1/2 years as a DH and didn't turn it around until he went back to SF and began playing the field again.

Thanks, it seems like if i was a 22 year old i would have a hard time staying in the game as a DH too. It makes perfect sense that he would hit much better as a full time player. They say that players who part-time DH hit MUCH worse in games that they DH, and that it doesnt even have anything to do with age. The successful DH's are those who always DH, and they KNOW that's the only way they're getting in the game. Those who are 'stuck' DH'ing or doing it for a game or two, tend to hit much lower. I dont have that stat handy, but they showed it on 'The Shredder" on MLB network with Brian Kenny.

 

[ballerskrip]

...........and you knew i'd reply. I have watched lots of his at-bats, and yes i absoutley still have every faith that he will be a .300 hitter with power, and to be honest, his performance thus far has been excellent considering how young he is (22), and how much they were forced to have him catch with Olivo went down.

To the 'can't anchor the Mariners lineup comment', its pretty well accepted that you're going to hit better in a strong lineup than one where the pitcher fears nobody.

Earlier in the year he had a ridiculous split where he was hitting .200 as a DH and .400 as a Catcher. Then he was forced into full time catching duty and his overall numbers turned up a bit. I just checked the splits and it still holds true:

[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table"]
[TR]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: left"]Split
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]G
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]GS
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]PA
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]AB
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]R
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]H
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]2B
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]3B
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]HR
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]RBI
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SB
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]CS
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]BB
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SO
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]BA
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]OBP
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]SLG
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]OPS
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]TB
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]GDP
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]HBP
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SH
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SF
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]IBB
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]ROE
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]BAbip
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]tOPS+
[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]sOPS+
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]as C
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[/TD]
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[TD="align: left"]as DH
[/TD]
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[/TD]
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I fully expect as the weather turns warmer in Seattle that it will help him, but the fact of the matter is, Adrian Beltre was a great hitter for years in LA, He is now a GREAT hitter in Texas. And he was a terrible terrible hitter for 4 years in Seattle. That ballpark KILLS power hitters.

The good news is, Montero is a great hitter who happens to have power. He'll figure it out, and in that park, maybe he's more Edgar Martinez than Miggy Cabrera.

Did anyone see his return to Yankee Stadium? He flipped an oppo home run into the bleachers in right and let everyone know that could have been his signature move.

So yeah, a 22 year old thrust into a starting catching situation, is actually hitting .322 and slugging .517. As a DH.....not so much.

Some might say you are picking and choosing numbers, and portraying them to look positive. The overall numbers, are the overall numbers. Who cares if he was catching, playing DH, or even 1b. His overall hitting stats are what is going to be looked at, and what he will be judged by. At safeco he is batting .246 with 4 HR and 12 RBI. Very similar stats to his road numbers. I am not sure how much you can blame the park in this case.

Yes, his numbers would probably be better playing in Yankee stadium, but to me that speaks LESS of the Yankees players. They have a great hitters park, and they also have tons of stars around them.

I personally think he is fairing AVERAGE, not well, but not poorly. He is young, talented, and has plenty of time to develop. So I am far from writing him off.

At the same time, I have to bet that those holding onto his cards are extremely pissed, and not happy about the way he has performed thus far this year.

skrip

 

[Mudcatsfan]

Mudcats fan, I agree he's still young and has plenty of time to develop, but he hasn't proven that he's a "great hitter" yet. As the kids say nowadays, slow your roll.

I dont think anything in his numbers prove he's a 'great hitter'. My opinion was from watching him in person and on video for over 400 at bats over a couple years from 2008-2010.

I think he has an amazing, advanced approach. Lots of guys say they look opposite field and react to inside pitches. Heck Mike Stanton is ONLY allowed to hit opposite field EVERY pitch during BP. Then during the game what does he do? He tries to pull every dang pitch he sees.

Montero not only looks opposite field, he HITS there. He DRIVES it opposite field, and every once in a while he'll drive it over the fence that way. When he actually attacks an inside pitch, (rarely) he kills it. Situationally, with a man on 3rd and 2 outs, you can see him strike singles up the middle to score the man, rather than taking a huge hack and coming up empty with a warning track power out. You see Miggy do that, you see veterans do that, you dont see 22 year olds doing that.

Some guys you can just tell, are guessing. They dont have a plan, they're just hacking. When Francoeur came up, you could see it. He was just swinging out of his shoes. To be honest, Harper looks like that some times. Maybe his bat speed will allow him to continue to kill it, but folks have already posted stats that Harper cannot hit a good slider. Maybe that catches up to him, maybe it doesn't. I've also seen him do some great situational hitting, so i'm guessing he too will figure it all out.

I'm kind of rambling now, but my point is, i can SEE that he knows what he's doing at the plate. Does it happen every night? No, but Josh Hamilton just hit .189 in June, so yeah, hitting is hard. Montero is a 'hitter'. I can see it.

 

[hail2thevictors]

I'll tell you what-I'll take him over Lonnie Chisenhall.

Sorry skrip, but two can play this game:lol::lol:

 

[Mudcatsfan]

Some might say you are picking and choosing numbers, and portraying them to look positive. The overall numbers, are the overall numbers. Who cares if he was catching, playing DH, or even 1b. His overall hitting stats are what is going to be looked at, and what he will be judged by. At safeco he is batting .246 with 4 HR and 12 RBI. Very similar stats to his road numbers. I am not sure how much you can blame the park in this case.

Yes, his numbers would probably be better playing in Yankee stadium, but to me that speaks LESS of the Yankees players. They have a great hitters park, and they also have tons of stars around them.

I personally think he is fairing AVERAGE, not well, but not poorly. He is young, talented, and has plenty of time to develop. So I am far from writing him off.

At the same time, I have to bet that those holding onto his cards are extremely pissed, and not happy about the way he has performed thus far this year.

skrip

Completely agree that his cards were DOA when NY traded him. That was the end of that. You lose the NY fanbase, you lose the protection of the Yankee lineup, and you lose the attention of the East Coast.

As a baseball player though? I'm surprised you're downplaying the difference between being a full time player or a DH. There's a tremendous difference, and i would say its greatly magnified by his being so young and eager. It would be AWFUL to be stuck on the bench when you truly feel / know you could be out there full-time.

To me that's not picking and choosing, thats a legit difference, and its even something they can 'fix' by making him the starting catcher and giving him 3 or 4 starts a week there. There's also the option of trying to find him another spot. Smoak has him blocked at 1b, but it seems obvious he's a better hitter whilst actually playing.

 

[Mudcatsfan]

Also, i'm very much enjoying the discussion. Good to trade ideas with y'all.

 

[ballerskrip]

I'll tell you what-I'll take him over Lonnie Chisenhall.

Sorry skrip, but two can play this game:lol::lol:

Sadly yes.....