"It's not fair..." by Craig Biggio

"I think it's kind of unfair, but it's the reality of the era that we played in," he said. "Obviously some guys are guilty and others aren't, and it's painful for the ones that weren't."

http://m.espn.go.com/mlb/story?storyId=8832348

Oh Craigers, but it is fair. You're all guilty. You (and every player in the union) had every opportunity to stand up and force the union to more widely accept testing. You could cross the line, get tested and others would follow.

You did nothing and perhaps this is part of the reason you didn't get in on year one. Another reason is...well...you're Craig Biggio and not a household, immortal legend.

Whether or not Biggio used is irrelevant as to partial guilt and the fairness of being lumped into the "Steroid Era."

Every player is dirty...either through use or through lack of action. Most are probably guilty of both. And no, anyone related to baseball (players, management, fans, commissioners, etc.) claiming ignorance regarding steroid usage is being hilariously dishonest and comically dumb.






Posted by witchcraft, voodoo and technological kung fu.

Yes, because when I think of household, immortal legends, I immediately think of Bruce Sutter and Gabby Hartnett. And I hardly think that the fact that Craig Biggio did not stand up against his union and decry the lack of testing makes him guilty of anything, much less undeserving of the HOF. I don't have a problem that he didn't get in on the first ballot - just a problem with thinking that he somehow didn't deserve to because he got 3,000 hits during a period of time when some baseball players were using steroids.

dp33 said:

Yes, because when I think of household, immortal legends, I immediately think of Bruce Sutter and Gabby Hartnett. And I hardly think that the fact that Craig Biggio did not stand up against his union and decry the lack of testing makes him guilty of anything, much less undeserving of the HOF. I don't have a problem that he didn't get in on the first ballot - just a problem with thinking that he somehow didn't deserve to because he got 3,000 hits during a period of time when some baseball players were using steroids.

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I'm not big on Sutter being in the HOF, but Harnett? Really? I'm assuming you just don't know baseball history in the rolling of that name out.

As for guilt...we disagree. Guilt by association is just as fair when someone does nothing to distance himself from that association.

One player is all it would take. One. And without that one player, they all receive the scarlet letters for the era - PED.





Posted by witchcraft, voodoo and technological kung fu.

So for all those years were the writers not guilty of the same thing?

I understand your point that even the players that did not use PEDs are somewhat guilty for turning the blind eye, but basically everyone involved is responsible for it, from ownership to the media to the fans themselves.

I think it's a case of the old saying hindsight is 20/20... He may have done differently then if he knew what he knows now. Most people don't go against the grain, especially in team sports. To expect that someone would have raised their hand and said "ooh! ooh! test me because in 10 years from now I might have a shot at the hall of fame and I don't want to be penalized for playing with cheaters when this era of the game is coined the steroid era," is not realistic. No one can see the future. No one playing had future knowledge to help inform them on what to do at the time.

Who he is as far as a household name doesn't really matter... we, the fan, the household member, have no say on whether or not anyone goes into the Hall anyway! The baseball writers who have that priveledge should know enough about the game to understand who is deserving and who isn't (though if Aaron Sele got a vote, I guess I have to question that! LOL).

D-Lite said:

So for all those years were the writers not guilty of the same thing?

I understand your point that even the players that did not use PEDs are somewhat guilty for turning the blind eye, but basically everyone involved is responsible for it, from ownership to the media to the fans themselves.

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The writers are the leaders of the ass clown parade where they can play attorneys for both sides, judge and jury.




Posted by witchcraft, voodoo and technological kung fu.

200lbhockeyplayer said:

I'm not big on Sutter being in the HOF

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I'm not big on a LOT of the players that are in the HOF, but truth be told, it's a flawed system with flawed voters who use personal grudges to get their jollies. Which isn't right at all.


Three recent names that pop into my head that I don't agree with being in the Hall of Fame are Sutter, Herzog and Lee Smith..............and you know what? They all played for the Cardinals, my favorite team. But do I think they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame? Hell no.

Maybe I take the Hall of Fame more serious than most, but I think it should only be the elite of the elite, best of the best, and no 'borderline' guys.


And Ron Santo too. Only reason he got in is because he died. He wasn't good enough to get in when he was alive, and he got the sympathy vote, which makes me sick.

200lbhockeyplayer said:

I'm not big on Sutter being in the HOF, but Harnett? Really? I'm assuming you just don't know baseball history in the rolling of that name out.

As for guilt...we disagree. Guilt by association is just as fair when someone does nothing to distance himself from that association.

One player is all it would take. One. And without that one player, they all receive the scarlet letters for the era - PED.





Posted by witchcraft, voodoo and technological kung fu.

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Yep, that's why I posted - because I don't know anything about baseball history. I'd say you know even less about unions, as long as we're just resorting to playground comebacks.

Of course, the funniest thing is Gabby Hartnett is such a household, immortal legend in your eyes that you refer to him as Harnett. Whereas I, who don't know anything about baseball history, somehow know how to spell his name.

We do definitely disagree on the term "guilty", that's for sure. The fact that he (presumably) didn't take PEDs is more than enough to distance himself from that association in my mind.

Super Mario said:

I'm not big on a LOT of the players that are in the HOF, but truth be told, it's a flawed system with flawed voters who use personal grudges to get their jollies. Which isn't right at all.


Three recent names that pop into my head that I don't agree with being in the Hall of Fame are Sutter, Herzog and Lee Smith..............and you know what? They all played for the Cardinals, my favorite team. But do I think they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame? Hell no.

Maybe I take the Hall of Fame more serious than most, but I think it should only be the elite of the elite, best of the best, and no 'borderline' guys.


And Ron Santo too. Only reason he got in is because he died. He wasn't good enough to get in when he was alive, and he got the sympathy vote, which makes me sick.

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Ugh. Lee Smith is not even in the Hall of Fame.

dp33 said:

Ugh. Lee Smith is not even in the Hall of Fame.

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I misspoke, my bad.

I got confused when I was actually typing it out, and for some reason Smith popped into my head instead of Santo, then I added Ron at the end.

Well, there was testing done before mandatory testing kicked in and that test had to come back with a certain percentage positive before the Union would allow testing. I have read from numerous sources that some people refused testing, which counted as a automatic positive, no because they were taking drugs but because they wanted the automatic testing to kick in to clean up the game.

Those results were never made public in full, so we don't know what players may have done this, the ones who did if any to me deserve much praise for basically trying to force their union and fellow players into doing the right thing.

dp33 said:

Yep, that's why I posted - because I don't know anything about baseball history. I'd say you know even less about unions, as long as we're just resorting to playground comebacks.

Of course, the funniest thing is Gabby Hartnett is such a household, immortal legend in your eyes that you refer to him as Harnett. Whereas I, who don't know anything about baseball history, somehow know how to spell his name.

We do definitely disagree on the term "guilty", that's for sure. The fact that he (presumably) didn't take PEDs is more than enough to distance himself from that association in my mind.

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Awe, that's cute.




Posted by witchcraft, voodoo and technological kung fu.

Super Mario said:

I misspoke, my bad.

I got confused when I was actually typing it out, and for some reason Smith popped into my head instead of Santo, then I added Ron at the end.

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You became preoccupied with making sure you got your slam on the Cubs in!!

hawkfandan said:

You became preoccupied with making sure you got your slam on the Cubs in!!

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I was thinking ahead of myself, haha. When I got past Sutter and Herzog, I sat here for a little bit like 'Damn, who else was I just thinking about?!'

Super Mario said:

I was thinking ahead of myself, haha. When I got past Sutter and Herzog, I sat here for a little bit like 'Damn, who else was I just thinking about?!'

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That was your problem... people aren't supposed to think on this forum... just post and take a flaming for it!

morgoth said:

Well, there was testing done before mandatory testing kicked in and that test had to come back with a certain percentage positive before the Union would allow testing. I have read from numerous sources that some people refused testing, which counted as a automatic positive, no because they were taking drugs but because they wanted the automatic testing to kick in to clean up the game.

Those results were never made public in full, so we don't know what players may have done this, the ones who did if any to me deserve much praise for basically trying to force their union and fellow players into doing the right thing.

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Interesting. It's a shame that we won't know who those players were - it would be nice to have someone come out of this a winner.

200lbhockeyplayer said:

Awe, that's cute.

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Gotta get back to work, kiddo - this was fun though.

I'm sure you know this well.. I love you.. But you're wrong!

The players during the "steroid era" had the same responsibility to speak out as the players during the "amphetamine" era and the same as the players during "segregation era". Because they didnt doesn't make them guilty or of lesser ilk. It just means they carried on the tradition of their predecessors .

Lets also be honest.. Steroids didnt arrive on Jose cansecos pimply back and swing from his shrunken raisin like testicles. They had been around for 4 plus decades and I'm certain they had made their way to baseball prior to that twitching, Madonna banging, jet fuel consuming, ******.

Now you're right about biggio not being the biggest name and had he not gotten to 3000 hits if say he didnt belong.

My question and I asked Jill painter this.. Is do the baseball writers plan on removing Ty Cobb and Gaylord perry for cheating? And why they didnt label the greenie era as cheats? Especially when it comes to cal ripkens streak. Because if there is one greenie consumed the most incredible record was broken the same way as 755 and 61!

200lbhockeyplayer said:

Oh Craigers, but it is fair. You're all guilty. You (and every player in the union) had every opportunity to stand up and force the union to more widely accept testing. You could cross the line, get tested and others would follow.

You did nothing and perhaps this is part of the reason you didn't get in on year one. Another reason is...well...you're Craig Biggio and not a household, immortal legend.

Whether or not Biggio used is irrelevant as to partial guilt and the fairness of being lumped into the "Steroid Era."

Every player is dirty...either through use or through lack of action. Most are probably guilty of both. And no, anyone related to baseball (players, management, fans, commissioners, etc.) claiming ignorance regarding steroid usage is being hilariously dishonest and comically dumb.

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I see here you're definitely not a fan of personal responsibility and automatically blames "the system" for problems. Biggio's only job was to play baseball, just like anyone else.

You're pretending that its easy for an individual or group to change organizational culture, or are otherwise naive in thinking it would be. Its not anyone's responsibility to be Jackie Robinson or Curt Flood and try to change institutional/organizational culture. Leading by example and staying clean is leadership enough.

Frankly Biggio is wise by distancing himself from what would keep him out of the hall.

Super Mario said:

I'm not big on a LOT of the players that are in the HOF, but truth be told, it's a flawed system with flawed voters who use personal grudges to get their jollies. Which isn't right at all.


Three recent names that pop into my head that I don't agree with being in the Hall of Fame are Sutter, Herzog and Lee Smith..............and you know what? They all played for the Cardinals, my favorite team. But do I think they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame? Hell no.

Maybe I take the Hall of Fame more serious than most, but I think it should only be the elite of the elite, best of the best, and no 'borderline' guys.


And Ron Santo too. Only reason he got in is because he died. He wasn't good enough to get in when he was alive, and he got the sympathy vote, which makes me sick.

Click to expand...

I agree that the Hall should be taken more seriously and should be reserved for the best of the best rather than the borderline 10th ballot kind of guys.


I don't have as much of a problem with Santo due to his contributions to the game even beyond his playing career. Based on his playing career alone, I would have left him out too, but he meant a lot to Cubs fans, as I understand it.


As for Biggio, 3000 hits should be a guarantee for the Hall of Fame, but not a guarantee for the 1st ballot. I don't think he deserves the prestige of a 1st ballot induction, but I would like to see him in the 3rd or 4th time around.

I'm absolutely a fan of personal responsibility, which is why Biggio and this whole notion of "fair" is comical.

He's claiming it's not fair that he is lumped in a tainted era.

Had he simply accepted the vote, it is what it is and not mentioned "fair", I could care less. If he didn't do anything to distance himself from the era and now calls it unfair...that's not personal responsibility...that's whining.

And it wasn't Jackie that made the stand, it was Branch Rickey. Rickey hand-picked Jackie...but there was a long line of players wanting to be Jackie. Only one Branch Rickey.




Posted by witchcraft, voodoo and technological kung fu.