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Thread: Hurricane Scandy

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    Senior Member hive17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buynhisellnlow View Post
    While I am aware of the incidents at American consulates and embassies resulting in the loss of lives during the time period you reference, I believe that the incident in Benghazi is different.

    Benghazi was a prolonged act of kinetic activity against American personnel and property that was reported through the appropriate channels and mechanisms that are in place to respond to such an incident were not triggered due to political concerns despite requests from both the end-state user(s) and operational sides. Bottom line is that the scope and successfulness of the attack could have been mitigated to a large extent if the appropriate measures were followed while the other incidents you referenced, to the best of my knowledge, were point attacks that occurred.

    As for the Benghzi emails being altered, I only know the same as the general public. That being said though, if any members of the GOP or anyone else altered emails, I believe that they should be held criminally accountable for obstructing the investigation.

    I believe my post history on here will show that I am not motivated by political-affiliations.
    I don't have a problem WITH the criticism, I have a problem with WHO is criticizing and what looks like an overt attempt to attach POTUS to the actions on the ground.

    I only find it hypocritical because, these are the same people who made it a HUGE point that Obama should get no credit for the successful SEAL raids on either the Somali pirates or even the OBL raid. Republicans were quick to point out the distance between actions on the ground and POTUS. They wanted to make sure that Obama received as little credit as possible for these direct actions. But when the operation goes bad (or there simply is no operation), they want to make it look like the President was personally in Italy preventing a helicopter with a QRF from taking off.

    It just doesn't ring true to me.
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    Senior Member hive17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hive17 View Post
    I don't have a problem WITH the criticism, I have a problem with WHO is criticizing and what looks like an overt attempt to attach POTUS to the actions on the ground.

    I only find it hypocritical because, these are the same people who made it a HUGE point that Obama should get no credit for the successful SEAL raids on either the Somali pirates or even the OBL raid. Republicans were quick to point out the distance between actions on the ground and POTUS. They wanted to make sure that Obama received as little credit as possible for these direct actions. But when the operation goes bad (or there simply is no operation), they want to make it look like the President was personally in Italy preventing a helicopter with a QRF from taking off.

    It just doesn't ring true to me.
    Obama doesn't get credit for the OBL killing because he sat on his thumb with it deep in his @$$ for months while military strategists in his own party told him the likelihood that there was a high value target there was overwhelming. He didn't give the order. He was basically overruled by members of his own cabinet and team until the attack successfully took place. only THEN was it his idea...

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    Hurricane Scandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Buynhisellnlow View Post
    While I am aware of the incidents at American consulates and embassies resulting in the loss of lives during the time period you reference, I believe that the incident in Benghazi is different.

    Benghazi was a prolonged act of kinetic activity against American personnel and property that was reported through the appropriate channels and mechanisms that are in place to respond to such an incident were not triggered due to political concerns despite requests from both the end-state user(s) and operational sides. Bottom line is that the scope and successfulness of the attack could have been mitigated to a large extent if the appropriate measures were followed while the other incidents you referenced, to the best of my knowledge, were point attacks that occurred.

    As for the Benghzi emails being altered, I only know the same as the general public. That being said though, if any members of the GOP or anyone else altered emails, I believe that they should be held criminally accountable for obstructing the investigation.

    I believe my post history on here will show that I am not motivated by political-affiliations.
    I don't feel like Banghazi should be different then those other attacks... Americans died there as well.. It's only an issue now because of the administration that's in there, plain old politics ...

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    Hurricane Scandy

    Quote Originally Posted by bmc398 View Post
    Obama doesn't get credit for the OBL killing because he sat on his thumb with it deep in his @$$ for months while military strategists in his own party told him the likelihood that there was a high value target there was overwhelming. He didn't give the order. He was basically overruled by members of his own cabinet and team until the attack successfully took place. only THEN was it his idea...
    Lies. Who gave the order? Besides, you don't make rash decisions when putting soldiers lives at stake.. Or did you not learn from Iraq?

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    Senior Member onionring9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkman View Post
    I don't feel like Banghazi should be different then those other attacks... Americans died there as well.. It's only an issue now because of the administration that's in there, plain old politics ...
    Totally makes sense then why the Obama administration shouldn't be held to the fire for this but the Bush one should for theirs - they are the same and should therefore be treated differently.
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    Senior Member hive17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmc398 View Post
    Obama doesn't get credit for the OBL killing because he sat on his thumb with it deep in his @$$ for months while military strategists in his own party told him the likelihood that there was a high value target there was overwhelming. He didn't give the order. He was basically overruled by members of his own cabinet and team until the attack successfully took place. only THEN was it his idea...
    Thanks for proving my point. Republicans don't care about the facts, just how it can be used against the Obama Administration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hive17 View Post
    I don't have a problem WITH the criticism, I have a problem with WHO is criticizing and what looks like an overt attempt to attach POTUS to the actions on the ground.

    I only find it hypocritical
    This is it, not just for Benghazi but for all of these questionable actions recently.

    The NYT has it right when they say this is a case of the party that cried "Kenyan."

    When everything that Obama has ever done has been a scandal according to the loudmouth right, centrists have been desensitized to the point of not caring anymore. These things should be legitimate concerns, but who has time time to discern that through all of the noise?
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    Senior Member Buynhisellnlow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labratt21 View Post
    Yeah, I would imagine that it's a very difficult process to go from receiving a threat to figuring out if its credible or not and then how to react if it is credible. Multiply that by some huge number of threats that are deemed credible and it's a huge Charlie Foxtrot. Ideally, how many personnel would it take to do this kind of job?
    It depends on what you mean by "this kind of job". The intelligence community (IC) is comprised of tens of thousands of individuals. IC professionals focus on human intelligence, signals intelligence, measurement and signature intelligence, imagery intelligence as well as other intelligence disciplines and then there are those that aren't focused specialists but examine the big picture and put the information together in an usable format.

    Organizations like DARPA are making significant headway in automating many of these processes. Their work is reducing the amount of people needed for certain tasks but the human capital required in intelligence collection and processing is still significant.

    However, if you define "the job", I can at least give you an estimation on what is required.


    Quote Originally Posted by hive17 View Post
    I don't have a problem WITH the criticism, I have a problem with WHO is criticizing and what looks like an overt attempt to attach POTUS to the actions on the ground.

    I only find it hypocritical because, these are the same people who made it a HUGE point that Obama should get no credit for the successful SEAL raids on either the Somali pirates or even the OBL raid. Republicans were quick to point out the distance between actions on the ground and POTUS. They wanted to make sure that Obama received as little credit as possible for these direct actions. But when the operation goes bad (or there simply is no operation), they want to make it look like the President was personally in Italy preventing a helicopter with a QRF from taking off.

    It just doesn't ring true to me.
    For both OPERATION LIGHTNING DAWN and OPERATION NEPTUNE SPEAR, POTUS gave operational authority for the missions to be executed. Some credit is due there but I believe that most recent U.S. presidents would have done the same in those situations. That being said, I believe you are aware though of my disdain for Bush Jr. for the times he did not authorize kinetic operations against HVIs to include OBL.

    Bottom line for me is that multiple people in the chain of command failed those Americans in Benghazi. If POTUS was not given an accurate SITREP and/or was not aware of the execution authority delegation requests, then I would expect for him to hold those responsible for his lack of situational awareness accountable. I would also expect for POTUS to ensure that measures were in place to correct the failures that occurred but unfortunately, that has not happened, at least not from the operational integration channels of the CT side.

    As I believe you know, I would have these same criticisms regardless of the political affiliation of the person holding office.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmc398 View Post
    Obama doesn't get credit for the OBL killing because he sat on his thumb with it deep in his @$$ for months while military strategists in his own party told him the likelihood that there was a high value target there was overwhelming. He didn't give the order. He was basically overruled by members of his own cabinet and team until the attack successfully took place. only THEN was it his idea...
    What? Can you please provide sources to substantiate these claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkman View Post
    I don't feel like Banghazi should be different then those other attacks... Americans died there as well.. It's only an issue now because of the administration that's in there, plain old politics ...
    As I covered earlier, I believe the Banghazi incident is very different from the other incidents. I have clearly outlined where I believe the failures within the USGOV were for Banghazi.

    However, I know that I am not always correct and would welcome any further information in regards to the other incidents that you claim to be the same as Banghazi. Could you please tell me what the failures were in those other incidents, how the USGOV should have reasonably known they were going to occur and what the respective administrations should have done in order to prevent them?

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    Re: Hurricane Scandy

    Quote Originally Posted by hive17 View Post
    Thanks for proving my point. Republicans don't care about the facts, just how it can be used against the Obama Administration.
    The funny thing is there are so many factual issues to attack Obama for that when that when these things get thrown around it causes questions of agenda.

    I think we can assume "the other guy" isnt so obama neutral as he started off saying...

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    Hurricane Scandy

    I have voted Obama twice and I can say that I'm more unhappy about his actual governing than Benghazi, the IRS, and alleged wiretapping of the AP combined.


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    Re: Hurricane Scandy

    Quote Originally Posted by notjomommasclint View Post
    I have voted Obama twice and I can say that I'm more unhappy about his actual governing than Benghazi, the IRS, and alleged wiretapping of the AP combined.


    I'm old Greg
    This. Hell he should have just tapped Twitter, it's where the AP gets their news from.

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    Senior Member hive17's Avatar
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    The Benghazi hearings shouldn't have been much more than an AAR. Operation Eagle Claw was a much bigger disaster, more lives were lost, and that was simply poor planning. So out of that, we got the SOAR and SOCOM years later, in an effort to fix the perceived problems of that mission.

    The difference here is, since the Republicans couldn't get the initial attacks to affect the election like the Iran Hostage Crisis and Eagle Claw did, they're trying to now make it into a Watergate or Iran Contra. And it's obvious. And it's pathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notjomommasclint View Post
    I have voted Obama twice and I can say that I'm more unhappy about his actual governing than Benghazi, the IRS, and alleged wiretapping of the AP combined.


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    Quote Originally Posted by darkman View Post
    Lies. Who gave the order? Besides, you don't make rash decisions when putting soldiers lives at stake.. Or did you not learn from Iraq?
    Leon Panetta.

    Biden and Obama had their panties in a wad that if we raided the compound and found nothing that Pakistan would be real real mad with us. WHO CARES! This is the same Pakistan that was hiding him and thousands of other terrorists within their borders!

    Obama gives too much of a XXXX of how the outside world views America. We can't be everybody's friend....not everybody is friendly! If this were any other country protecting its domestic interests doing this it would be no big deal, but since its the good ole US everything we do is under the strictest scruitiny. Anytime anybody brings up Iraq and how it was so damn injust for us to go in there I ask them....is the country not better off than it was 10 years ago. When you ask somebody who has had boots on the ground the answer is an overwhelming YES. Were the reasons we went over there BS? Sure, I don't think any rational thinker is going to disagree with that. That said, I think we have and will leave the country better off than how we found it. There's hundred of years for the people of Iraq to write their own story....a story that would have been much different without US involvement (and yes, I think that our involvement inevitably will reflect as a good thing). Yes, people died.....US military, Iraqi military, Iraqi civilians even and it is a crying shame that life was lost. The same people who point out the death toll in the Iraq war will ignore the death toll that President Drone kill is racking up.

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