Why do collectors shun printing plates?

That multi-plate card is a great design.

I only pick up printing plate cards if they include an auto. Anything else doesn't hold my interest.

I would buy them whenever I can, if not for the fact that sellers tend to hold them hostage a stupid price points. They refuse to let the market dictate what they should go for, so they remain unsold, thus adding to the theory that they are not liked by collectors.

Generally, I'm not a huge printing plate person (In fact I don't have a single one at this time in my collection). However, I think they look killer when compiled with a rainbow set. I can understand both points of view. With that said, I do love preproduction material, especially from the 80's and early 90's when the product was overabundant and the images of the cards themselves were pierced into my childhood memory. Original photo match prints or color separation proofs (which remind me of Andy Warhol art) are absolutely awesome as they provide rarity in an otherwise saturated market. Seeing an '87 Donruss Bo Jackson RC always hits me 100% with nostalgia, but to see a color separation proof...well that would be too cool (Never seen one by the way). I'm still waiting for the day that the Topps Vault releases ANY Maddux 1987 preproduction material - it's going to put me back a little.

With regard to the printing plates, I guess there are two things that have kept me from jumping on them.

1. I would prefer spending my resources on (true) 1/1's, pre-production material from the 80's to mid 90's, or things of that nature.
2. They are placed in packs with cards which doesn't quite have the same impact (to me) as material that was back doored or made without initial intention of selling it as a collectable.

I personally think the printing plates are cool. I'm in the boat where I enjoy the production process, but also understand individuals who like the finished product. To me, I'd rather have a printing plate, match print photo, transparency, etc. to the regular issue card. They produce tons of cards, but these items are pretty much one of a kind and kinda cool to me at least.

I have mixed feelings about them. They're cool because they were used to make the cards.
Imagine having a printing plate used to make iconic cards like a the '89 Upper Deck Griffey rookie, or vintage cards like a '34 Goudey Ruth or '52 Topps Mantle.

But don't companies use several, dozens or in the case of mass-produced '80s cards, possibly hundreds of printing plates, because they get worn out?

And then one of each color of those dozens of plates used is saved to be inserted into packs? Or maybe the printing plates inserted into packs are just clean spares that weren't even used?

So technically, printing plates are like 1/1s, but many more were actually used to create the set's cards and then were thrown out.

Austin said:

I have mixed feelings about them. They're cool because they were used to make the cards.
Imagine having a printing plate used to make iconic cards like a the '89 Upper Deck Griffey rookie, or vintage cards like a '34 Goudey Ruth or '52 Topps Mantle.

But don't companies use several, dozens or in the case of mass-produced '80s cards, possibly hundreds of printing plates, because they get worn out?

And then one of each color of those dozens of plates used is saved to be inserted into packs? Or maybe the printing plates inserted into packs are just clean spares that weren't even used?

So technically, printing plates are like 1/1s, but many more were actually used to create the set's cards and then were thrown out.

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You would be correct on all accounts! If there was an '89 UD Griffey, '43 Goudy Ruth or '52 Mantle set of plates out there, I'm sure there would be collectors going nuts over them.

Yes, printing companies keep more than one set of printing plates. The plates dont really wear out, they do get clogged up with ink if the ph in the ink goes up or down really quick. The printer operator either has to stop the press, hand wash the dies or remove it, replace it with a clean one, then get it back in time with the other 3 colors and off he goes. Then clean the die once it's off the press. It's really a facinating process. I worked for Georgia-Pacific years ago in their packaging division and really not a whole lot has changed with printing processes in 70 years other than the machines are faster and we now use soy/water based ink vs lead based ink.

Fordman

fordman said:

(...) they were actually used to make the cards we go after.

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are they really? All the plates I own look too clean to have been used to make the cards we get. I'd expect the plates to have some misc or stray ink stains on them and especially on the reverse from handling. My feeling is that one set of plates are created and cut up to be inserted rather than using the plates to print some cards and then get cut up and packed out.

rsmath said:

are they really? All the plates I own look too clean to have been used to make the cards we get. I'd expect the plates to have some misc or stray ink stains on them and especially on the reverse from handling. My feeling is that one set of plates are created and cut up to be inserted rather than using the plates to print some cards and then get cut up and packed out.

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I believe them to be, but then again, I don't have any proof one way or the other. I would think it to be very unethical (which I wouldn't put it past any company) to make them under the assumption that they were used to print the others, only to find out they were just made to be sold. If they weren't used, they still do have the cool 1/1 factor going for them. But then again, I believe them to be used.

fordman said:

You would be correct on all accounts! If there was an '89 UD Griffey, '43 Goudy Ruth or '52 Mantle set of plates out there, I'm sure there would be collectors going nuts over them.

Yes, printing companies keep more than one set of printing plates. The plates dont really wear out, they do get clogged up with ink if the ph in the ink goes up or down really quick. The printer operator either has to stop the press, hand wash the dies or remove it, replace it with a clean one, then get it back in time with the other 3 colors and off he goes. Then clean the die once it's off the press. It's really a facinating process. I worked for Georgia-Pacific years ago in their packaging division and really not a whole lot has changed with printing processes in 70 years other than the machines are faster and we now use soy/water based ink vs lead based ink.

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Cool first-hand information. Thanks!

rsmath said:

are they really? All the plates I own look too clean to have been used to make the cards we get. I'd expect the plates to have some misc or stray ink stains on them and especially on the reverse from handling. My feeling is that one set of plates are created and cut up to be inserted rather than using the plates to print some cards and then get cut up and packed out.

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We're going to have to take them for their word that they were used in the actual card making process. The companies arent going to order a set of printing dies just to cut them up, way too expensive for that. The dies are cleaned before they're cut up and inserted into packs. The dies are made of stainless steel, add that to the soy based inks used now vs lead based, there isnt any staining of the plates. I've seen plenty on ebay that have a magenta or yellow hue to them, so that should tell you that they were used, just wasnt cleaned that well before cutting up.

Fordman

For me, it is the glut of other 1/1 cards in any given set. Marwin Gonzalez had three non-plate 1/1s in 2016 Topps. That's not including the aftermarket online 1/1s. It's too much to chase, so I focus on the non-plates.

That said, if the price is right, I am happy to add them.


Sent from my iPhone using Freedom Card Board

I like plates, but not at the price point of other more true 1 of 1s because they feel incomplete without the full set. I've never achieved a full set to date, 3 is the most I've acquired for any given run. I tend to collect framed plates, either A&G-style or framed with a card stock border adhered directly to the die.

fordman said:

We're going to have to take them for their word that they were used in the actual card making process. The companies arent going to order a set of printing dies just to cut them up, way too expensive for that. The dies are cleaned before they're cut up and inserted into packs. The dies are made of stainless steel, add that to the soy based inks used now vs lead based, there isnt any staining of the plates. I've seen plenty on ebay that have a magenta or yellow hue to them, so that should tell you that they were used, just wasnt cleaned that well before cutting up.

Fordman

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Thanks for the info, it's neat to hear how the process works. Any idea how much a set of printing dies actually costs to order?

rsmath said:

are they really? All the plates I own look too clean to have been used to make the cards we get. I'd expect the plates to have some misc or stray ink stains on them and especially on the reverse from handling. My feeling is that one set of plates are created and cut up to be inserted rather than using the plates to print some cards and then get cut up and packed out.

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I have 2 of 4 of the plates of one 2015 Bowman Chrome Auto card and I can tell you that it's very clear they were used in the process. Edge scratches, back of plate scratches, fingerprints that are stuck on the card... like it's the print workers' layer of skin!

Some plates are just ugly. Framed plates look nice, like the A&G Minis, or some of the late 00's Bowman plates. But when they're done wrong, no one in their right mind is going to want them. Add a sticker auto, and bad gets worse, like the infamous Tito Fuentes:


2005 Topps Retired Signature Edition Autographs Printing Plate Black #TA-TF - Tito Fuentes /1
Courtesy of COMC.com

fordman said:

We're going to have to take them for their word that they were used in the actual card making process. The companies arent going to order a set of printing dies just to cut them up, way too expensive for that. The dies are cleaned before they're cut up and inserted into packs. The dies are made of stainless steel, add that to the soy based inks used now vs lead based, there isnt any staining of the plates. I've seen plenty on ebay that have a magenta or yellow hue to them, so that should tell you that they were used, just wasnt cleaned that well before cutting up.

Fordman

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Aren't printing plates aluminum?

Printing plates are FuGly!

fordman said:

The companies arent going to order a set of printing dies just to cut them up, way too expensive for that. The dies are cleaned before they're cut up and inserted into packs. The dies are made of stainless steel, add that to the soy based inks used now vs lead based, there isnt any staining of the plates.

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what's the name of the printing process? I should go see if I can find a nearby print shop that uses that process in order to see how things work (or at least find a youtube video of the process).

I assumed the steel or aluminum plate had a non-stick surface mask added to it to define where the ink sticks and where it doesn't on the plate (and that non-stick surface was color dyed so printers could recognize what color plate they are installing in their printing machine), You are making it sound like in each of my printing plates in my collection, the color comes from the ink touching it rather than being the color of the non-stick surface mask.

in 2006 and 2007 i worked in a printing factory that printed this book. it has black ink and i think orange ink on the inside, so there were two plates instead of 4. all the plates got thrown away/recycled. i wish i would have asked to keep one or two theres some cool pictures in there david price in college, verlander as a rookie etc. I did keep a copy of the book and also some untrimmed pages.

rsmath said:

what's the name of the printing process? I should go see if I can find a nearby print shop that uses that process in order to see how things work (or at least find a youtube video of the process).

I assumed the steel or aluminum plate had a non-stick surface mask added to it to define where the ink sticks and where it doesn't on the plate (and that non-stick surface was color dyed so printers could recognize what color plate they are installing in their printing machine), You are making it sound like in each of my printing plates in my collection, the color comes from the ink touching it rather than being the color of the non-stick surface mask.

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There are several types of printing, here is the most common:

Flexographic



Ink sits in a pan. A pump pumps the ink in between a wiper/rubber roll and an anilox roll. The anilox roll is a roll with millions of cavities that hold ink. When the printing plates touch the anilox roll, the raised part of the printing plate touches the anilox roll transfering ink to the printing plate. The printing plate roll them rotates and touches the paper for printing.

or

Offset (which is probably what is used to make cards)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offset_printing

Same as flexographic but add an additional roll in there to protect the dies from having direct contact with the paper or printing surface.

Fordman