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Baines, Lee Smith Headed to the Baseball Hall of Fame

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gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
38,660
3,246
Near Philly
As an A's fan, I appreciated Baines more than most, but he's not a HOFer to me. Heck, he could barely run his last 5 years.

I don't totally agree with Lee Smith either but he was good enough for long enough it's not a big problem for me...
 

gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
38,660
3,246
Near Philly
As an A's fan, I appreciated Baines more than most, but he's not a HOFer to me. Heck, he could barely run his last 5 years.

I don't totally agree with Lee Smith either but he was good enough for long enough it's not a big problem for me...
 

TNP777

New member
Aug 7, 2008
3,528
1
the 209
“Harold Baines was on the ballot as recently as 2011 and received 4.8% of the vote. It was his fifth straight year with a vote total below 10%. Why, just seven years later, do 16 people get to decide that he's now a Hall of Famer when 95.2% of the voters didn't think he was one?“
- Aaron Gleeman, editor-in-chief, Baseball Prospectus

I couldn’t have said it any better myself, Aaron. While both of these players were very good, neither belongs among the legends of the game. Just because other very good players have unfortunately made it in doesn’t mean we have to let them all in now.
 

ccouch (Chad)

Member
Aug 8, 2008
444
6
Baines' election is just frickin' asinine. Excluding closers, he's easily the worst player elected in the last 30 to 40 years. Blows away the elections of Blyleven and Sutton.
 

jbone17

Active member
Sep 26, 2008
6,756
42
The Riverlands.
The fact George Steinbrenner doesn't get in is a crime. Between 1973-2010, "The Boss" won seven World Series titles. He was one of the biggest advocates of revenue sharing (Against his own will). Most of these owners can bow down to his philanthropy and kiss his boots. Yes, he rubbed folks the wrong way; however, the nostalgia that comes with his legacy cannot be ignored. I'm sorry, but Harold Baines isn't a HOF'er. Neither is Lee Smith.



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mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
6,188
4,100
Congrats to the both of them. Gives hope for players like Oliver, Parker, John, W. Davis, Pinson, Murphy, Garvey and some others if the Hall will start recognizing some of those "on the fence" type players everyone loves to ***** about. People need to stop comparing guys like Baines to the likes of Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. Those guys are rare as it is, a few per generation, but to think everyone in the Hall of Fame needs to be at their playing level is just short sided.
 

Austin

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2008
5,706
41
Dallas, Texas
What a joke. Even Baines himself said he was in total shock.
He was good but never great. No one considered Baines a Hall of Famer during his playing days.

He was the ultimate stat compiler. He had 2,800+ hits, but only once did he have more than 173 hits in a season. He had almost 400 homers, but only once hit more than 25 homers.
He received MVP votes in only four of his 22 seasons, and was never higher than 9th place.

Worst of all, Baines never received more than 6% of the HOF vote. Now he’s magically worthy, after 94% of voters said he wasn’t?

So why was he elected this time? ESPN’s analysts say the main reason is because of the nonstop lobbying of White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf, who just happens to be one of the 16 voters, who also include Baines’ former teammate Roberto Alomar, his former GM Pat Gillick and former manager Tony LaRussa.

Lots of nepotism in these new committees, and it favored Baines this time.
 
Last edited:

mhcook

Member
Feb 22, 2011
165
1
After hours of no understanding of what could possibly explain Harold Baines, someone else finally provided that. Everyone (not accused of steroids with over 2800 hits is in the HOF, same goes for over 1600 RBIs. So Baines crossed 2 thresholds that everyone who has crossed has made it.

I feel like doing so much of it as a DH and taking 22 seasons, took away from the significance of these totals, but I wasn't voting.

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WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,736
1,498
Oklahoma
After hours of no understanding of what could possibly explain Harold Baines, someone else finally provided that. Everyone (not accused of steroids with over 2800 hits is in the HOF, same goes for over 1600 RBIs. So Baines crossed 2 thresholds that everyone who has crossed has made it.

I feel like doing so much of it as a DH and taking 22 seasons, took away from the significance of these totals, but I wasn't voting.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Freedom Card Board mobile app

How in the world? Edgar Martinez has been fighting and clawing his way up the list as the greatest DH of all time and Baines gets in before he does? WTH?

Looking at the list I thought that Clark would be the borderline guy they put in with Smith. Baines shouldn't have even been on the list at all.
 

forgerelli

Member
Apr 4, 2013
383
8
I'm a big hall guy. Smith is borderline at best, but Baines is a horrible selection. One of the worst ever.

A quick comparison to one of my favorite overlooked guys Dwight Evans:

Baines:Right Field (74th):
38.7 career WAR / 21.4 7yr-peak WAR / 30.1 JAWS

Evans:Right Field (15th):
67.1 career WAR / 37.3 7yr-peak WAR / 52.2 JAWS

Average HOF RF (out of 25):
72.7 career WAR / 42.9 7yr-peak WAR / 57.8 JAWS

Dwight Evans is almost literally twice the player Baines was.

WTF. seriously, WTF.
 

RNCoyote

Well-known member
Nov 4, 2009
1,146
184
Texas
Baffled Baines is in. George Steinbrenner got less than 5 votes? Did they hold a grudge for what he did in the 80s and early 90s or didn't like how he threw big time money to free agents during late 90s dynasty?
 

TNP777

New member
Aug 7, 2008
3,528
1
the 209
A guy over on CU said this should open the door for Vada Pinson now.

To me, this is exactly why letting guys like Baines, Trammell, Whitaker and others in is such a bad thing. Pinson, like the aforementioned three players, was very good. Transcendent? Not. Even. Close.

Baines, in the five years he was on the ballot before fell off, never received more than 6.1% of the vote. But now he's worthy of baseball immortality? Hell to the no.

Let me repeat that for the people in the back of the room: HAROLD BAINES NEVER RECEIVED MORE THAN 6.1% OF THE VOTE FROM THE BBWAA BEFORE HE FELL OFF THE BALLOT IN JUST FIVE YEARS.

There's a reason that guys like Pinson, Mattingly, Gil Hodges, Garvey, Ted Simmons Dave Parker, and yes, even Dale Murphy, aren't in the Hall of Fame. They simply weren't good enough. I mean, if Mattingly hadn't been a Yankee, but toiled his entire career in San Diego - would there ever have been a conversation about him?

Understand that I'm not picking on Pinson here. He was mentioned, so I went off of that. For reference, though, he was on the BBWAA ballot for 15 years - he never received more than 15.7% of the vote.

Steve Garvey: 15 ballots, highest vote total 42.6%
Dale Murphy: 15 ballots, highest vote total 23.2%
Gil Hodges: 15 ballots, highest vote total 63.4% (his last year on the ballot)
Don Mattingly: 15 ballots, highest vote total 28.2% (his first year on the ballot)
Ted Simmons: (a sentimental favorite) - he was on the ballot ONCE, getting 3.7% of the vote, meaning he couldn't get on the ballot the next year)
Lou Whitaker: (another sentimental favorite - on the ballot once, getting 2.9% of the vote - see note on Simmons above)

and to prove a point:
Alan Trammell: 15 ballots, highest vote total 40.9% (his last year on the ballot - elected by Veteran's Committee)
 

ccouch (Chad)

Member
Aug 8, 2008
444
6
I woke up this morning and thought maybe I had dreamed this last night.

Holy hell.

I realize very well that the Baseball Writers aren't beholden to the relaxed standards of this special committee that elected Baines, but if Baines is now the dividing line as to what a HOFer is, there's probably 200 other guys who now have a case to be inducted as well. What a joke.
 

banjar

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2015
2,540
883
Lafayette, Colorado
I am totally with you. Harold Baines is in the HOF? Lee Smith? Good guys, I really liked them. Especially Smith. But Hall of Fame? No, no, and no again.

Harold Baines never finished above 9th in MVP voting. For his entire career, he has 0.31 MVP voting shares, putting him 640th in MLB history. An obscure stat for sure, but it tells you about how dominant he was - or more accurately, wasn't. Only once - and barely once - in his entire career was he voted among the top 10 most valuable players in his league.

I don't think Lee Smith is a HOF'er, but at least finished 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 9th in Cy Young voting. That's some serious consideration in multiple years. Hell, he even got some MVP votes now and then. In fact, this *relief pitcher* finished his career with more MVP voting shares than Baines. Also, his career WAR is 29.0. Not bad for a relief pitcher. I mean, if somebody REALLY put the screws to me and made the Lee Smith case for HOF, I might eventually agree. Even if it's just to shut them up.

But Baines? No, no, and no again. We need a line in the sand people. His career WAR is 38.7, which is only 9.7 above Smith - who, again, was a *relief pitcher*. I know WAR wasn't invented when he played, but it tells you a lot. He had exactly one season above 4 WAR, and only one more season above 3 WAR. Every single one of his other TWENTY seasons was below 3. Baines played 22 years and accumulated some nice numbers, but he was never, ever, ever great. Not even for one freaking season.

Here is the HOF summary for Baines from Baseball Reference. Not the ultimate answer, but one of the best ways to compare HOF'ers versus their peers.

Hall of Fame Statistics:

Black Ink
Batting - 3 (560), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (655), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 66 (311), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 44 (121), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Right Field (74th):
38.7 career WAR / 21.4 7yr-peak WAR / 30.1 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 26):
71.4 career WAR / 42.1 7yr-peak WAR / 56.8 JAWS



I woke up this morning and thought maybe I had dreamed this last night.

Holy hell.

I realize very well that the Baseball Writers aren't beholden to the relaxed standards of this special committee that elected Baines, but if Baines is now the dividing line as to what a HOFer is, there's probably 200 other guys who now have a case to be inducted as well. What a joke.
 

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