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Thread: What will be the outcome within the hobby with all this PSA, BGS, PWCC/consignor fraud?

  1. #31
    Senior Member finestkind's Avatar
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    PWCC will go away, along with Moser and Betsy. Jail time ? Too early to tell. PSA looks complicit now. I hope law enforcement grabs them all. Too many people like graded cards for PSA to totally go away.
    Last edited by finestkind; 06-04-2019 at 10:55 PM.
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  2. #32
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    I donít think nothing will happen it will be business as usual in a month for all people the only one who might do jail time which I doubt will be the guy altering cards but there is no law that he has broken. People have jobs that fix pictures and artwork that has been damaged this is pretty much the same. I donít like the idea but it will make me second guess any graded card I buy.


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  3. #33
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    What is PWCCís proven involvement exactly? I buy from them often and consign through them consistently. Am I to be concerned for real or can I just go on ignorantly doing what has worked (or not so much worked for actual profit) for me buying and selling?


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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pjere View Post
    What is PWCCís proven involvement exactly? I buy from them often and consign through them consistently. Am I to be concerned for real or can I just go on ignorantly doing what has worked (or not so much worked for actual profit) for me buying and selling?


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    Well thatís my point what I seen is vintage cards cards in one condition being bought and a different condition being sold though the claim says he bought using a different account altered the card and sold with a higher grade. What I read itís more speculations than proof of wrong doing. The fact SSIguy was blatant than PWCC and nothing has happened to him tells me this will just be remembered by some and forgotten by others


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  5. #35
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    What will be the outcome within the hobby with all this PSA, BGS, PWCC/consignor fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris19978 View Post
    Well thatís my point what I seen is vintage cards cards in one condition being bought and a different condition being sold though the claim says he bought using a different account altered the card and sold with a higher grade. What I read itís more speculations than proof of wrong doing. The fact SSIguy was blatant than PWCC and nothing has happened to him tells me this will just be remembered by some and forgotten by others


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    Yea, it seems a bit over reacted to but at the same time it does raise the concern that my cart full of graded and ungraded cardís waiting to be purchased from pwcc may have cards that arenít legit?!
    I do not want to downplay peopleís concerns but also donít want to get worked up on someone elseís theory and accusations.
    There do seem to be a lot of games played in this industry and it makes me a bit sad that it probably all happened when I was buying as a kid with my dad. Was that Jordan rookie that we bought in 1988 legit? Are my 1955 mays and 1968 Mantles that I bought as a kid with my dad legit or trimmed? Who is to know?
    Someone also made a point of buying a car and restoring it to itís best original condition. I know it wonít be a popular comparison but I like the point. As long as the card is only trimmed to the original size if it was slightly oversized like a lot of modern heritage cards are, is this a bad thing or a restorative thing?
    I donít know what to do with all of this and am not passionate enough to care so I will just continue on in my ignorance I suppose



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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pjere View Post
    Yea, it seems a bit over reacted to but at the same time it does raise the concern that my cart full of graded and ungraded cardís waiting to be purchased from pwcc may have cards that arenít legit?!
    I do not want to downplay peopleís concerns but also donít want to get worked up on someone elseís theory and accusations.
    There do seem to be a lot of games played in this industry and it makes me a bit sad that it probably all happened when I was buying as a kid with my dad. Was that Jordan rookie that we bought in 1988 legit? Are my 1955 mays and 1968 Mantles that I bought as a kid with my dad legit or trimmed? Who is to know?
    Someone also made a point of buying a car and restoring it to itís best original condition. I know it wonít be a popular comparison but I like the point. As long as the card is only trimmed to the original size if it was slightly oversized like a lot of modern heritage cards are, is this a bad thing or a restorative thing?
    I donít know what to do with all of this and am not passionate enough to care so I will just continue on in my ignorance I suppose



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    I just think they are saying someone is guilty before all the evidence is shown. BlowOut has many people over reacting last I knew PWCC was based in the USA and they should be innocent till proven guilty by the courts not some person who might have a grudge finding 5 auctions they have out of 4000 and finding faults. I posted quite a bit there today canít wait to see peopleís responses.


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  7. #37
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    Well, guilty is guilty. Fraud needs to be dealt with. As far as shills, although I don't buy many cards anymore (I still look all the time, just that what I want either doesn't exist or is too pricey) when I did go into bids I always had my limit. No matter the item I'd pick my limit and set my bid, and if I got beat so what? I wasn't interested in overspending and certainly not going to be baited by shills. Once I lost, and the dealer IMed me in a week and asked if I still wanted it, since 'the top bidder wouldn't pay'. I refused, I didn't trust the messenger.

  8. #38
    Member banjar's Avatar
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    Guys, how can anyone read that PWCC thread - and others on BO - and still walk away saying "well I'm still not sure" or "the evidence isn't in"? Knowingly selling altered cards as un-altered is fraud, and the BO guys have shown conclusively that PWCC has repeatedly done this. And in doing so, they have received premiums on these sales that they would not have otherwise received.

    About shilling, I agree that simply placing your max bid and letting it ride is a clean and simple way to approach auctions. But shill bidding is a crime, and I'm not OK being taken advantage of by shillers. Basically, it boils down to theft. If a seller outbids you on his own item, ultimately he has stolen something that would otherwise have been yours. And worse, if the seller outbids you but then retracts his bid at the last second, leaving you in the lurch to pay your max bid, he is trying to steal money from you that you would not have otherwise paid.
    Collecting Roberto Alomar. Over 4000 unique cards, but always looking for those I'm missing!

  9. #39
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    Actually not all of these BO threads is a slam dunk. I recall one where the OP lists a couple cards and then says well, because of the history of these people, we can assume these cards are part of their racket. The mod and some other members basically jumped all over him for that one.
    Collecting Roberto Alomar. Over 4000 unique cards, but always looking for those I'm missing!

  10. #40
    Administrator cgilmo's Avatar
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    I expect pwcc to bleed for a while before recovering and Moser to be done. Nothing will happen to PSA.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjar View Post
    Guys, how can anyone read that PWCC thread - and others on BO - and still walk away saying "well I'm still not sure" or "the evidence isn't in"? Knowingly selling altered cards as un-altered is fraud, and the BO guys have shown conclusively that PWCC has repeatedly done this. And in doing so, they have received premiums on these sales that they would not have otherwise received.

    About shilling, I agree that simply placing your max bid and letting it ride is a clean and simple way to approach auctions. But shill bidding is a crime, and I'm not OK being taken advantage of by shillers. Basically, it boils down to theft. If a seller outbids you on his own item, ultimately he has stolen something that would otherwise have been yours. And worse, if the seller outbids you but then retracts his bid at the last second, leaving you in the lurch to pay your max bid, he is trying to steal money from you that you would not have otherwise paid.
    I never said their innocent they get a lot of cards sent in from other people my point is until the investigation is over and all the evidence is out is when the truth will be out. They have sold altered cards yes but to have a guy to claim all these cards were owned by them, and altered by them or a third party is the question you canít say is 100% with one person who could have a bias. There auctions will take a hit yes, do I plan to bid on any of their stuff probably not and if I do I will do with caution like everyone else.


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  12. #42
    Senior Member JoshHamilton's Avatar
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    Can someone give me a summary? I’d rather read gay romance novels than the retards on BO

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshHamilton View Post
    Can someone give me a summary? Iíd rather read gay romance novels than the retards on BO
    Multiple discussions showing PWCC selling altered graded card that Moser the trimmer sent to them and claiming they bought and had him altered cards. I didnít see the proof of them buying cards though it was a lot of topics and reading and I could have missed something. I will wait till the investigation I do believe they did sell altered cards not sure it was knowingly though or that they bought cards and had them altered.


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    There are a ton of threads on this at BO and net54, but look at some of the other threads on both boards: people obsessing over .5 grade differences and talk of crossing stuff over as a way to profit.

    That tells me this is just a blip. No changes wil occur at grading or auction houses until attitudes amongst colectors change towards the importance of grading (and the willingness to spend money on grading and graded cards). I don't see that happening.
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  15. #45
    Administrator cgilmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshHamilton View Post
    Can someone give me a summary? Iíd rather read gay romance novels than the retards on BO
    I broke it down on twitter.


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