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Thread: 10 Hall of Fame Modern Era candidates announced.

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    Senior Member Austin's Avatar
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    10 Hall of Fame Modern Era candidates announced.

    With Harold Baines being elected last election, it's impossible to predict who will make it this time.
    Each of the ten candidates is more deserving than Baines in my opinion.

    ESPN -- A 10-man ballot of candidates who will be eligible for selection to the Baseball Hall of Fame this year though the Modern Baseball Era committee was released today.

    Thurman Munson is on the committee's ballot for the first time, as are Dwight Evans and Lou Whitaker. Former players Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons are again up for selection, as is former players' union executive Marvin Miller.

    The Modern Baseball Era Committee, which will vote in December, considers individuals who contributed to baseball from 1970-87 and who are no longer eligible through the writers' election process. They must receive votes on 12 of the committee's 16 ballots to be elected to the Hall of Fame. In 2017, Jack Morris and Alan Trammell were elected through the Modern Baseball Era committee.

    Munson won the AL Rookie of the Year in 1970 and the MVP in 1976 with the Yankees. He is one of only two catchers in history to hit .300 with 180 hits and 100 RBI over three consecutive seasons, but his career was cut short at age 32 when he died in a plane crash.

    Mattingly, the 1985 AL MVP, was a career .307 hitter and won nine Gold Gloves in 14 seasons with the Yankees.

    John played eight of his 26 major league seasons with the Yankees and enjoyed much of his greatest success in New York, finishing second in the Cy Young voting in 1979. He finished 288-231 in 700 career starts, pitching 14 years after undergoing the now-common ligament surgery that now colloquially bears his name.

    Simmons, who fell one vote shy of election in 2017, played 21 seasons for the Cardinals, Brewers and Braves, being named to the All-Star team eight times. He is second all-time in both hits and RBIs among players who spent at least half their careers as a catcher.

    Whitaker spent 19 years with the Detroit Tigers, making the All-Star team five times and winning three Gold Gloves at second base. He won the 1984 World Series while playing alongside Trammell.

    Evans played 19 seasons for the Red Sox and one for the Orioles, racking up 2,446 hits while winning eight Gold Gloves. He hit 256 of his 385 home runs in the 1980s, more than any other American League player in the decade.
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    Senior Member MrMet's Avatar
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    10 Hall of Fame Modern Era candidates announced.

    If Mattingly gets in, why not Keith Hernandez.

    His bio could read...

    Hernandez, the 1979 coMVP, was a career .296 hitter, and won 11 Gold Gloves in 19 seasons with the Cardinals, Mets and Indians. (Pretty darn similar to Mattingly)

    He also has two World Series rings among other accolades...not sure if either are HOFers, but i find it strange mentioning one without the other


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    Should be an interesting vote. I know a bit about all these guys but mostly they all played before I was really into the sport so I don't have the great context of watching them on a daily basis. Having said that Simmons not being in has always been a bit of a head scratcher for me. For a guy who logged that many games at catcher his numbers seem pretty solid. These guys are the borderline, I don't think any of them HAVE to be in but at the same time none of them would be upsetting to me.

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    Junior Member saucywombat's Avatar
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    Whitaker has the highest career WAR of any eligible player not in the HOF

    All seem like good candidates. I'd have to go with Murphy who led the 1980's in RBI and was 2x MVP

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    Member mrmopar's Avatar
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    Would like to see all of them in eventually.

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    For me, non of them are HOF'ers...neither was Baines either. They all had a number of very good seasons, but lack the longevity of those seasons. The last couple of years, the Veterans committee is letting in the border line guys more and more. A case can be made of each of those guys (Trammell, Smith, Baines, Morris, and the guys above)....but a case can also be made why they should not be in too. I grew up in the 80's watching all those guys, and they didn't seem like the best player on the field like other guys did like Henderson, Gwynn, Sandberg, etc. I'm one of the old thinkers of it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good. For me, it's the best of the best, and that line of who's in and who's just out is moving in the wrong direction to get more guys in.

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    Over the decades there have been several different ways players were elected, and different standards as to what makes a player great. This has led to having a lot of guys in the Hall that by modern metrics and procedures likely would not be elected. That's fine, it's part of figuring things out over generations and many very good if not great players, many interesting names, would be remembered a lot less if they weren't in. The fact is, it IS the Hall of Very Good, based on so many previous selections. Some people just played at the wrong time, or had the wrong criteria being judged by the electors of the time, to win election, or they had the exact opposite good fortune. My main question for veteran elections now is "Is this player better than people already in?" If so, then I'd be fine with their selection.

    Munson is a tough case. Catchers are not hugely represented in the Hall, and Munson still looms large in living memory (I was 9 when he died). That he was a Yankee, part of the Bronx Zoo, and died suddenly and too early all contributes to his image, but his on-field performance I think makes him a very reasonable Hall of Fame catcher, especially in his era. He hit as high as .308 and had as many as 20 homers in a season. In his 9 full seasons he averaged about 5 WAR, peaking at 7.2. Not great with the glove but a good arm. And all the intangibles people love: ROY, MVP, a bunch of All-Star selections, 2 rings, and generally having a reputation as a badass, or just an ass, whichever you prefer.

    I wouldn't think there was some great injustice if he was selected, but neither would it be a real shame if he wasn't. By some people's thinking that makes him NOT a HoFer, if he creates feelings of ambivalence. Fair enough, but considering there are a lot of guys already in the Hall who many current fans couldn't pick out of a lineup, I'm not sure personal scope of feeling isn't the right metric. If and when there's a way to eject people from the Hall, or some sort of tier system is devised, then a discussion that can be had with some nuance. But of the 20,000 guys who played, a couple hundred have been elected, and is it really possible to draw a bright red line at exactly the top 1%?
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    Senior Member BBCgalaxee's Avatar
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    If Munson gets in, his 1970 RC will be the first HOF RC in that set.

    And that means that there will be at least one HOF RC (xrc included) issued every year from 1951 until 1992

    If Mattingly gets in, every topps set (or traded) will have at least one HOF RC from 1952 until 1991

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    Last edited by BBCgalaxee; 11-05-2019 at 05:33 PM.

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    Member mrmopar's Avatar
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    In my opinion, people need to come up with a new and better argument against the "watering down" of the Hall of Fame by using comments like it's not the "Hall of very good". We are generally taught to expect that the Hall of Fame, as we know it, contains only the best of the best. However, it is obvious that the line everyone has in their mind differs and the varying degrees of career achievements and statistical compilations of those who were enshrined will tell you that this line is not necessarily firm. Regardless of what anything thinks as to the deservedness of any member, they were voted in by one means or another. Their place can be debated, but it can not be denied...and Harold Baines doesn't give 2 ****s about anyone who thinks differently!

    Most if not all of the "borderline" candidates we talk about in recent times had stellar careers and would be looked upon as being better than 98% of their peers and those who came before them with lesser credentials. They are all famous, not only for being a Major League Baseball player first, but for winning awards, achieving statistical milestones and other factors that make them rise above the average player. I have argued this as long as I have been involved in this debate, that the Hall of Fame is exceedingly elite as it is and adding a few dozen names to a very small list of baseball history is not diminishing the accomplisments of those who are already enshrined and who may have had even better careers. Harold Baines doesn't make Babe Ruth any less great and Ruth doesn't make Baines any better by both being in the same club.

    As of the end of 2019, baseball has had 19,690 players debut and this does not include non-players, yet only 329 have been elected and this does include non-players. Even using the skewed numbers that excludes ALL non players to the count (thus making the actual percentage even smaller), the Baseball Hall of Fame represents a mere 1.65% (I rounded up from 1.648%) of the players who ever suited up to play the game (and several who didn't suit up).

    Here are the current tallies for members across the big 4 HOFs, for comparison, and their respective first year of election in parenthesis. Baseball started electing members the longest time ago and still has only the 2nd largest population, barely edging out the football HOF with almost 30 fewer years of elections to boot! On a side note, it would appear from this that the basketball HOF lets just about anyone in at the rate they have elected folks!

    Basketball - 395 (1959)

    Baseball - 329 (1936)

    Football - 326 (1963)

    Hockey - 271 (1945)

    Definitions to ponder:

    Fame

    The state of being known or talked about by many people, especially on account of notable achievements.

    Hall of Fame

    1 : a structure housing memorials to famous or illustrious individuals usually chosen by a group of electors
    2 : a group of individuals in a particular category (such as a sport) who have been selected as particularly illustrious

    I am not going to change anyone's mind who thinks Ted Simmons or Don Mattingly just weren't good enough, or for long enough, to warrant a place along side some of the best players or all time. But the reality is, they were better than 98% of their peers, were famous and may just deserve to be in the HOF some day.

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    Member banjar's Avatar
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    Good post. And you still didn't change my mind

    Seriously, I'm not even trolling you here, that was a really good post with good points and data. But all of us have to set the bar at a certain height, and Mattingly just doesn't make it for me. On the other hand I'm one of those "let all the roiders in" guys, so vive la difference....


    Quote Originally Posted by mrmopar View Post
    In my opinion, people need to come up with a new and better argument against the "watering down" of the Hall of Fame by using comments like it's not the "Hall of very good". We are generally taught to expect that the Hall of Fame, as we know it, contains only the best of the best. However, it is obvious that the line everyone has in their mind differs and the varying degrees of career achievements and statistical compilations of those who were enshrined will tell you that this line is not necessarily firm. Regardless of what anything thinks as to the deservedness of any member, they were voted in by one means or another. Their place can be debated, but it can not be denied...and Harold Baines doesn't give 2 ****s about anyone who thinks differently!

    Most if not all of the "borderline" candidates we talk about in recent times had stellar careers and would be looked upon as being better than 98% of their peers and those who came before them with lesser credentials. They are all famous, not only for being a Major League Baseball player first, but for winning awards, achieving statistical milestones and other factors that make them rise above the average player. I have argued this as long as I have been involved in this debate, that the Hall of Fame is exceedingly elite as it is and adding a few dozen names to a very small list of baseball history is not diminishing the accomplisments of those who are already enshrined and who may have had even better careers. Harold Baines doesn't make Babe Ruth any less great and Ruth doesn't make Baines any better by both being in the same club.

    As of the end of 2019, baseball has had 19,690 players debut and this does not include non-players, yet only 329 have been elected and this does include non-players. Even using the skewed numbers that excludes ALL non players to the count (thus making the actual percentage even smaller), the Baseball Hall of Fame represents a mere 1.65% (I rounded up from 1.648%) of the players who ever suited up to play the game (and several who didn't suit up).

    Here are the current tallies for members across the big 4 HOFs, for comparison, and their respective first year of election in parenthesis. Baseball started electing members the longest time ago and still has only the 2nd largest population, barely edging out the football HOF with almost 30 fewer years of elections to boot! On a side note, it would appear from this that the basketball HOF lets just about anyone in at the rate they have elected folks!

    Basketball - 395 (1959)

    Baseball - 329 (1936)

    Football - 326 (1963)

    Hockey - 271 (1945)

    Definitions to ponder:

    Fame

    The state of being known or talked about by many people, especially on account of notable achievements.

    Hall of Fame

    1 : a structure housing memorials to famous or illustrious individuals usually chosen by a group of electors
    2 : a group of individuals in a particular category (such as a sport) who have been selected as particularly illustrious

    I am not going to change anyone's mind who thinks Ted Simmons or Don Mattingly just weren't good enough, or for long enough, to warrant a place along side some of the best players or all time. But the reality is, they were better than 98% of their peers, were famous and may just deserve to be in the HOF some day.
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    The one guy I would have considered was Will Clark from last year. His career was on par with Kirby Puckett.

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    Senior Member Mozzie22's Avatar
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    Mattingly's stats are nearly identical to Kirby Puckett's. Just saying, one was first ballot and one should have been.

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