Is Mark McGwire a future Hall of Famer?

Pete14Rose said:

abncollectsautos said:

Pete14Rose said:

Well said!

I don't believe any of them will get in. And I don't feel any of them should get in.

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do you think pete rose should get in?

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I'll never stop being amused by how many people want to discuss steroids and the "Big 4" (Sosa, Mac, Rocket, Bonds) and then they go and throw Rose's name in the pile. :lol:

So, let's get this out of the way now. Yes, I feel Rose should be in the HOF. No, Rose was never accused of taking steroids. Yes, Rose gambled/bet on the game. Apples and oranges...all day, every day.

By taking steroids players personally cheat to make themselves better than the average player(s) they are competing against.

Rose managed the Reds from 1984-89, a span of 786 games, leading the Reds to a 412-373 record. I am sure he could have done a lot worse had he been "throwing" games.

Unless someone is foolish enough to believe Rose was purposely throwing games, his gambling was nothing more than a personal addiction..along the lines of Billy Martin's alcoholism. The difference is that betting is not allowed in baseball. Rose broke a MLB law and is paying the price.


With all of that being said, he still broke a MLB rule. He was banned for life and that's that. Perhaps he'll be inducted posthumously, perhaps not. Him not being in the HOF doesn't ruin anything for me as a fan. He STILL is one of the gretaest hitters to play the game, he STILL is the all-time hits leader and he will ALWAYS be "Charlie Hustle" - one the only players, in my opinion, who gave his all on the field every play, every game.



In summation -

Rose and his betting = Apples

McGwire/Sosa/Clemens/Bonds/Raffy and their juicing = Oranges

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no not apples and oranges. essentially the same. they have all been accused of cheating. cheating is cheating. i have never said anything about rose and roids.

i cant stand that everytime some brings the big four they automatically thing of nothing but steroids. what about all the good they did.

abncollectsautos said:

Pete14Rose said:

abncollectsautos said:

Pete14Rose said:

Well said!

I don't believe any of them will get in. And I don't feel any of them should get in.

Click to expand...

do you think pete rose should get in?

Click to expand...

I'll never stop being amused by how many people want to discuss steroids and the "Big 4" (Sosa, Mac, Rocket, Bonds) and then they go and throw Rose's name in the pile. :lol:

So, let's get this out of the way now. Yes, I feel Rose should be in the HOF. No, Rose was never accused of taking steroids. Yes, Rose gambled/bet on the game. Apples and oranges...all day, every day.

By taking steroids players personally cheat to make themselves better than the average player(s) they are competing against.

Rose managed the Reds from 1984-89, a span of 786 games, leading the Reds to a 412-373 record. I am sure he could have done a lot worse had he been "throwing" games.

Unless someone is foolish enough to believe Rose was purposely throwing games, his gambling was nothing more than a personal addiction..along the lines of Billy Martin's alcoholism. The difference is that betting is not allowed in baseball. Rose broke a MLB law and is paying the price.


With all of that being said, he still broke a MLB rule. He was banned for life and that's that. Perhaps he'll be inducted posthumously, perhaps not. Him not being in the HOF doesn't ruin anything for me as a fan. He STILL is one of the gretaest hitters to play the game, he STILL is the all-time hits leader and he will ALWAYS be "Charlie Hustle" - one the only players, in my opinion, who gave his all on the field every play, every game.



In summation -

Rose and his betting = Apples

McGwire/Sosa/Clemens/Bonds/Raffy and their juicing = Oranges

Click to expand...

no not apples and oranges. essentially the same. they have all been accused of cheating. cheating is cheating. i have never said anything about rose and roids.

i cant stand that everytime some brings the big four they automatically thing of nothing but steroids. what about all the good they did.

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Apples and oranges, yes. Unless, like I said, someone is foolish enough to believe Rose was throwing games ala the 1919 Whitesox. When talking of betting and baseball, the 1919 Blacksox scandal could be a closer analogy to the cheating of the steroid era and Bonds & company. While betting is betting - It's the belief of many that Rose's gambling didn't stem from a need to alter the game. He has a problem. That is STILL apparent today. He signs autographs to make money to simply blow in the casinos...he still has a gambling problem nearly 20 years later.


As for the "good deeds" of the juicers....Their so-called good deeds do not, and never will, outweigh their steroid use. Just as all of Rose's accomplishments will never outweigh his betting on baseball.

Rose may be re-instated one day. Even then I don't feel that he'll receive enough votes to get into the HOF.

In one form or another Bonds/Sosa/McGwire/Raffy & Clemens have been branded steroid users/cheaters. Records or not they have all left a bad taste in the mouths of those who determine HOF eligibility.


If one gets in, they all must get in. That in itself, I feel, will keep them all out.

Mighty Bombjack said:

[quote="Big Mac McGwire":2pfcux8r][quote="Mighty Bombjack":2pfcux8r]I heard a prominent baseball insider argue against McGwire's candidacy in 2001 (before the steroid issue came to the forefront) because of the fact that he was a one dimensional player. Of course, players already in the HOF tend to have stringent standards for the HOF.

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if you put Phil Rizzuto and Ozzie Smith in the HOF for there 1 dimension, FIELDING, then Mark McGwire's 583 HR's should put him in there as well. THat is without the steroids issuse.

And yes Pete Rose should be in the HOF as well Nellie Fox and Gil Hodges and Jim Rice.[/quote:2pfcux8r]

Rizzuto doesn't belong in the HOF.

Smith is near or at the all-time list of defenders at arguably the most important defensive position (barring the catcher), as well as being a beloved person who back-flipped at opportune times. McGwire was not a great hitter, but near or at the top of the list of all-time power hitters. He was also beloved for several reasons, 1998 being the foremost. So, he should probably be in if steroids is not an issue. Now, we could argue the relative value to a team of having a dominant defender play every pitch at shortstop versus a masher hit a bomb every few games...[/quote:2pfcux8r]
:lol: :lol: :lol: When I was a kid I remember seeing that and thought he was the greatest player there was because of that :lol: .

The issue here is rules and the consequences of breaking those rules.

Long before Rose bet on baseball, Shoeless Joe was banned for allegedly getting involved in the gambling scandal. Precedent set: gambling in baseball-->permanent ban.

Pete Rose gambled in baseball. He got his permanent ban.

Throughout most of the 90's, there were no punishments set for taking steroids. Therefore there is no way for the MLB to formally punish Bonds or McGwire for taking steroids in the 90's. You can't retroactively punish someone. That's common sense. If there were no punishments in the 90's and McGwire only took steroids in the 90's, then that's that. In a way, it is apples and oranges. There's no way in hell Rose will get into the Hall while there is still a sliver of hope for Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Sosa.

Heck, even today, if you're found guilty of steroids, you get a 10 game suspension, not a permanent ban. Therefore, the only way to exclude Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, and Sosa would be to not vote them in. However, no official sanctions can be taken against them. Transgressions are forgiven with time. Today, we speak of Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth with admiration; their off-the-field transgressions are simply a side note. Eventually, I believe Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire will get in. I'm still not sure Sosa would've been a HOFer w/o steroids. I could see him end up with 470 homeruns and a .490 slugging percentage w/o steroids. I don't think that's Hall-worthy.

Pete14Rose said:

abncollectsautos said:

Pete14Rose said:

abncollectsautos said:

Pete14Rose said:

Well said!

I don't believe any of them will get in. And I don't feel any of them should get in.

Click to expand...

do you think pete rose should get in?

Click to expand...

I'll never stop being amused by how many people want to discuss steroids and the "Big 4" (Sosa, Mac, Rocket, Bonds) and then they go and throw Rose's name in the pile. :lol:

So, let's get this out of the way now. Yes, I feel Rose should be in the HOF. No, Rose was never accused of taking steroids. Yes, Rose gambled/bet on the game. Apples and oranges...all day, every day.

By taking steroids players personally cheat to make themselves better than the average player(s) they are competing against.

Rose managed the Reds from 1984-89, a span of 786 games, leading the Reds to a 412-373 record. I am sure he could have done a lot worse had he been "throwing" games.

Unless someone is foolish enough to believe Rose was purposely throwing games, his gambling was nothing more than a personal addiction..along the lines of Billy Martin's alcoholism. The difference is that betting is not allowed in baseball. Rose broke a MLB law and is paying the price.


With all of that being said, he still broke a MLB rule. He was banned for life and that's that. Perhaps he'll be inducted posthumously, perhaps not. Him not being in the HOF doesn't ruin anything for me as a fan. He STILL is one of the gretaest hitters to play the game, he STILL is the all-time hits leader and he will ALWAYS be "Charlie Hustle" - one the only players, in my opinion, who gave his all on the field every play, every game.



In summation -

Rose and his betting = Apples

McGwire/Sosa/Clemens/Bonds/Raffy and their juicing = Oranges

Click to expand...

no not apples and oranges. essentially the same. they have all been accused of cheating. cheating is cheating. i have never said anything about rose and roids.

i cant stand that everytime some brings the big four they automatically thing of nothing but steroids. what about all the good they did.

Click to expand...

Their so-called good deeds do not, and never will, outweigh their steroid use. Just as all of Rose's accomplishments will never outweigh his betting on baseball.

Rose may be re-instated one day. Even then I don't feel that he'll receive enough votes to get into the HOF.

In one form or another Bonds/Sosa/McGwire/Raffy & Clemens have been branded steroid users/cheaters. Records or not they have all left a bad taste in the mouths of those who determine HOF eligibility.


If one gets in, they all must get in. That in itself, I feel, will keep them all out.

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i agree with most of this. but they have done alot of good, i mean alot. raffy went to msu and thats near my home. i remember him coming back every year putting on free clinics for many kids. im sure they all have done stuff like that. clemens had a hospital named after him. yes they cheated, cant deny that. i agree if one gets in they all should. but i put rose in the same category, cheting is cheating. he may not have commited the same crime, but his time is the same. never being allowed in the hof. though im a huge rose fan.

The steroid guys better hope the halls changes its mind about Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose or they don't have a fighting chance to get in regardless of what they accomplished.

abncollectsautos said:

clemens had a hospital named after him

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Just some trivia, but that hospital is here in Houston, and, as of Thurday, it'll no long be named after him.

BunchOBull said:

abncollectsautos said:

clemens had a hospital named after him

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Just some trivia, but that hospital is here in Houston, and, as of Thurday, it'll no long be named after him.

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i understand, his gold tournament is gone also. but the point is he did.

1st4040 said:

The steroid guys better hope the halls changes its mind about Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose or they don't have a fighting chance to get in regardless of what they accomplished.

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The situations with Jackson and Rose aren't up to the Hall of Fame.

That is up to baseball (most notably the Commish).

So whatever chance the Big 4 have of getting into the Hall doesn't hinge on those two, so much so as the opinions of the writers and how they decide to "punish" those players.

On a side note, it's funny how so few people even consider Raffy one of the elite like "the big 4", Bonds, Sosa, Big Mac and the Rocket. THis guy had almost 570 HR's and over 3000 hits! His name desserves mention before anyone on that list save Bonds in my opinion. It's just such a shame what happened to him and how it happened that I think people want to forget, and forget him.


I loved Raffy...

matfanofold said:

On a side note, it's funny how so few people even consider Raffy one of the elite like "the big 4", Bonds, Sosa, Big Mac and the Rocket. THis guy had almost 570 HR's and over 3000 hits! His name desserves mention before anyone on that list save Bonds in my opinion. It's just such a shame what happened to him and how it happened that I think people want to forget, and forget him.


I loved Raffy...

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I loved watching him play, and he had an all-time sweet swing. And of course there are the glory stats you mentioned. But, again, people were arguing his hall-worthiness even before he failed a test, because he never led the league in any major category, never came close in MVP voting, never led his team to the playoffs, etc. Once, he got to 3000 hits, there were TONS of articles online saying "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Pretty Good."

I would've voted for him!

No. Never. He's the 1990's Dave Kingman. Kingman was the first player to hit 400HRs and not go to the Hall. Big Mac is the first 500 HR guy to hit 500HR and not got go. Steriod or not, he was nothing more than a Bobby Bonds/Dave Kingman/ Rob Deer/ Cecil Fielder/ Frank Howard type. Factor in the steriods, the juice balls, and his non-prime time hitting... I don't think he deserves to get in. Pretty one note player.

There seem to be two separate groups amongst those who feel the players do not belong in the Hall:

1: People who feel that they should be punished for cheating and should not be in the Hall. These people feel that despite a great presteroid career, once you juice, you are out. This include Sosa, McGwire, and also Bonds and Clemens.

2. Some people think that the players should not get credit for their "juiced" stats, but they should be kept out simply for juicing. Those people tend to say that Bonds and Clemens should be in, as they were great players (presumably) before they started taking anything.

Not sure where I stand on this. As a kid growing up following these guys, it's tough to be an impartial judge.

Mighty Bombjack said:

matfanofold said:

On a side note, it's funny how so few people even consider Raffy one of the elite like "the big 4", Bonds, Sosa, Big Mac and the Rocket. THis guy had almost 570 HR's and over 3000 hits! His name desserves mention before anyone on that list save Bonds in my opinion. It's just such a shame what happened to him and how it happened that I think people want to forget, and forget him.


I loved Raffy...

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I loved watching him play, and he had an all-time sweet swing. And of course there are the glory stats you mentioned. But, again, people were arguing his hall-worthiness even before he failed a test, because he never led the league in any major category, never came close in MVP voting, never led his team to the playoffs, etc. Once, he got to 3000 hits, there were TONS of articles online saying "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Pretty Good."

I would've voted for him!

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Yeah, it's hard to argue what your saying, but he was in the top 20 mvp voting 10 times, I mean who even gets considered for the MVP once in there carear least 10 times! Not to mention he has a handful of AS appearances, Gold gloves and Silver Slugger awards.

However, despite his lack of individual acclaim, he was indeed one the best players of the 90's and now that it's said and done, has put together carear stats that only a handful of players ever to play the game achieved. For me, thats more than enough acclaim. I agree that if it were for only the 3000 hits, a case could be made that he was one dimentional, and if it were for only the 570+/- HR, or the 1800+ RBI, or the... Well, you get my point.

In the end its all for not though, as many do not even remember him at all, let alone his awesome carear. I know I'll never forget him pointing at the camera saying "read my lips..."

:evil:

Bonds,Clemens,Sosa,Palmeiro were all better players then McGwire and I dont think any of them will or should get in so why should he.He was a one dimensional player and that alone should remove all consideration.

There are some popular misconceptions when it comes to steroids. Steroids were banned by MLB on 7 Jun 1991. Commissioner Vincent sent a 7 page document around to the teams letting them know that steroids were added to MLB's banned list.

Steroid Timeline

Barry Bonds* did fail a steroid test as well. It was not an MLB test, but this is a major part of the reason for the perjury charge.

Reuters: Bonds failed test before record


When it comes to Rose, I am a huge fan and always will be. My thoughts on the matter are not based on bias at all. Pete Rose should most definitely be in the HOF. What he did as a PLAYER earned him the right to be in the HOF. Pete Rose was caught when he was MANAGER of the Cincinnati Reds. Rose did not get into any trouble as a player. He did not get banned while he was still playing. What he did while he played for the Reds, Phillies, and Expos was enough to earn a spot in the HOF. I think Pete Rose, the player, should be inducted. I also think there should be mention of him being a manager and how he broke the rules while managing. Gambling on baseball is not cheating. What Joe Jackson was accused of is cheating. Pete was never accused and there was no evidence found to suggest that he ever bet against the Reds. Had he bet against them, he could have thrown the game for monetary gain. That would be cheating. Betting on his team to win is not cheating. I am not saying what he did was right, I am just saying that betting on games and throwing games/steroid use/cheating are different.

In my opinion, none of the steroid users should get in and Pete won't even have a shot posthumously. I find Pete Rose not being in the HOF much worse than whether or not any of the Steroid 4 make it. No offense to McGwire fans, but even with 583 HRs, McGwire is still not a HOFer. A .263 AVG, 1626 Hits, 1414 RBIs, and 1167 Runs just are not HOF numbers. If he had 2000+ hits, then he would probably be a HOFer, but the fact that he only has 1600 hits and that 35.8% of those hits are HRs, I just don't think he makes the cut.






Joe

thenumberonemetfan said:

Bonds,Clemens,Sosa,Palmeiro were all better players then McGwire and I dont think any of them will or should get in so why should he.He was a one dimensional player and that alone should remove all consideration.

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I'm not disagreeing that Big Mac is one dimensional, but he is no more one dimensional that Ozzie Smith or any other HOF'er who elivated the game of baseball by doing there one dimensional thing. My point is this, without steroids in the picture, Big Mac would be a lock. He was the epitimy of the home run. He hit them further, harder and with less effort than anyone else. He was adored by fans everywhere and a true face of the game.

The HOF is only 1 part statistics, the other is popularity and presence to the game. What he lacked in statistics(saying this about a guy who hit 500+ HR's) he made up in fame. He would of been a 1'st ballot lock if not for the steroids, period.

ill close on this topic with this. I could give 2 hecks worth if McGwire gets in. Would i go to Cooperstown to see the induction? Of Course. Will i hold my breath until it happens? No. He has been my all time favorite player. Back in the early 90's when he got hurt i never thought he would have lasted like he did. I never thought in 93 and 94 he would ever end up hitting 500 HR's. Anything MAC gave me as a fan after 1995 when he came back was a bonus. He already provided me with the greatest season a Player collector could ever wish for as well as a baseball fan - 1998. Him not making the hall will not change my feelings of my all time favorite player nor it will it deter me from collecting him. No other player past or present gives me a rush when i see a autographed item of his that i do not have and that i want. The hall of fame is filled with spitball pitchers, Racists, biggots and Old time cronie owners who did not want black immigration players to ever play. He was a class act player. And i feel his character puts him above some of the players that are in the HOF. He is a member of the 500 Home run club and that was all i ever wanted him to be when i was a teenager watching him go deep. Just my 2 cents.

I was a fan of Palmeiro and his unheard of offensive production, McGwire and his pure power, Bonds and his unreal batters eye/plate presence, Clemens' years of dominance and Sosa with his HR theatrics... but I would be kidding myself if I truly thought any one of them would ever make the Hall Of Fame now. Known cheaters of the game and of the fans do not and will not ever make the Hall, no matter how popular they are or were. Why do you think McGwire was so emotional during the hearings, he knew what he did was wrong and was upset at himself for letting down his fans and the game of baseball... he knew his legacy would be forever tainted.