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Oh Super Sweet 90's Inserts.... #3

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tidel144

Member
Jan 30, 2014
416
3
Speaking of bidding, current high bidder for the Rare Form Griffey is legit. However, don’t know about that others (and specifically that bidder with 15k+ feedback who is the high bidder on seemingly every other auction).
 

bstanwood

Well-known member
Sep 24, 2016
3,666
332
Mystic, CT
Speaking of bidding, current high bidder for the Rare Form Griffey is legit. However, don’t know about that others (and specifically that bidder with 15k+ feedback who is the high bidder on seemingly every other auction).

I saw that rare form Griffey on one or two others I think but it's the other two right under that bidder that are setting off alarms for me. I don't have any, but if anyone has an eBay contact that will listen, and then investigate, something like this we need to use it. I feel like a generic complaint will be ignored
 

bigalbert

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
1,324
3
I guess I look at it another way, these would be the most highly sought after cards by all collectors of the 90's stuff. Many of these cards are available for the first time ever. They will bring astronomical prices.


Sent from my iPhone using Freedom Card Board
 

gradedeflator

Active member
Mar 31, 2011
1,388
16
Could be..,but many of the crusade protos sold by samho didn’t bring astronomical despite being believed to be much rarer than these cards IIRC

I guess I look at it another way, these would be the most highly sought after cards by all collectors of the 90's stuff. Many of these cards are available for the first time ever. They will bring astronomical prices.


Sent from my iPhone using Freedom Card Board
 
Dec 4, 2008
607
3
It's really fun to hop on the 90's board this morning and see a bunch of people thinking the exact same thing that I was last night when I saw the prices pop for the epix. Not a surprise to see Pinnacle Man doing this. I call this play "The Showroom with a confederate". Namely draw a bunch of attention by popping the price on day one of a 10 day listing. Use 2 ID's to shill (high bids on all of them e***r(15387), y***i(15323)) and pump the price up, then if you can sucker someone in with a high bid, retract one of them and leave the new bidder with an elevated price. Or better yet, get them to go over the top of you and let it fly. Then sell your duplicates as a follow on offer to under-bidders. Personally I was already turned off by PM's aggressive pricing but seeing what has all the hallmarks of shilling? Yeah, I'll pass. Pretty lame.
 
Aug 14, 2017
90
0
Same for the McGwire (Epix Play). Pack issued. Same for all three sets they are selling.

So if these Epix sets were all packed issued, is it assumed that these particular Epix cards were backdoored or technically never put in packs because we know the consigner worked at Pinnacle and he has many other never released Pinnacles cards.

Also, who ever wins the Epix lots, I'd be very interested in the Barry Larkins.
 

Therion

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2008
5,779
387
Looooooosiana!
Got these two for my Canada collection at bargain prices on COMC's Black Friday sale.

dfaf1b_603320fe3e3d4b29a65133d5e4ccc38c~mv2.webp

1997 Bowman's Best International Refractor #7 Larry Walker

dfaf1b_d600fd81afb340d5a9d69af08142de1b~mv2.webp

1997 Bowman's Best Atomic International Refractor #7 Larry Walker
 

tidel144

Member
Jan 30, 2014
416
3
In case anyone has not seen this yet:
https://www.beckett.com/news/unreleased-1998-select-certified-baseball-cards-ebay/

The power of PWCC continues for these.

First, frenzy bidding on Day 1 to build hype/get people talking. Controversy over the proof of shill bidding only brings further attention to the listings, but of course, alienates many potential bidders.

Second, have an article focusing on the listings on Beckett while everything is live.

Third, ride momentum all the way to the end and establish these cards as mythical status for years to come.

This is how hype builds up some inserts more than others (re: Crusade Reds). The fact that we all have been talking about these for almost 2 months now further markets everything indirectly. Think about the main things that create demand for a card and apply to these listings:
  • low print run/true rarity (check)
  • unique and visually stunning design (check)
  • produced from a popular and well-known product (check)
  • hardly ever seen/available for sale (check)
  • produced in the 90s (haha, check)
Then associate the words, ‘Pinnacle’ and ‘Bankruptcy’ and you have a monster on your hands. The appeal of bankruptcy cards has always been there. All of these factors have essentially built up the Crusade Reds to status they are today and some of these could follow suit.

Combine all of this with PWCC’s visibility and we get the perfect storm of insanity that we’re all currently witnessing.
 

tidel144

Member
Jan 30, 2014
416
3
Late October DallasCardShow listed bunch of Mirror Reds at auction then delisted cuz bidding was so low and reposted with high BIN. I can’t believe the market values have dramatically shifted where even the base pinnacle cards are commanding what PWCC’s auctions are at now.

I don’t think you can compare the Mirror Red listings from a few months back to these current listings because MRs have been surfacing here and there since 2000. The Rare Forms, some Select bases, Mirror Golds of certain players, and Pinnacle Cerftifed Epix cards all have never surfaced before.

Rather than a market shift, it’s more of that “Black Friday”-type rush with speculation of shill bidding served on the side
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
6,169
4,057
Perhaps some sour grapes instead of shill bidding? I don't have a stake in the game as buyer or seller, although I did toss out some early bids on a few cards that would have been cool to own before they exploded. All are significantly outside of my price comfort at this point. However, I don't find the cards themselves all that appealing aside form the fact they are unreleased. I don't know how I'd feel if Garvey was a subject, perhaps more like many of you who may be left out in the cold or out many $100s or $1000s if they did end up winning. I can't imagine two 10K+ members would jeopardize their reputations to shill something like this that obviously was going to see some high ending amounts regardless though.

There are more than enough people with too much money than they know what to do with in the card hobby though. I believe I have only topped the $500 mark twice in my life when it came to buying one item. One was a Robinson Leaf RC and the other was a Goudey Ruth. Neither rare by any standard, but both purchases had me second guessing spending that much money at one shot.
 

tidel144

Member
Jan 30, 2014
416
3
Emerald set is still up. The question is, with all the bankruptcy cards that recently surfaced, does this set make the print run on the Emerald Moment cards 31?

Great point. I view the Emerald Moments listed on PWCC/owned by PM as damage replacement copies/extras that were printed but never intended to be pack-released. Unfortunate, but reality. For comfort though, Emerald Moments of any player have been pretty hard to come by so I doubt a worst-case scenario of these being over produced like the ‘97 PC MGs.
 

tidel144

Member
Jan 30, 2014
416
3
I guess I look at it another way, these would be the most highly sought after cards by all collectors of the 90's stuff. Many of these cards are available for the first time ever. They will bring astronomical prices.


Sent from my iPhone using Freedom Card Board

I think this is a major point and reason for the current high prices that is getting drowned out by all the shill bidding talk.
 

bstanwood

Well-known member
Sep 24, 2016
3,666
332
Mystic, CT
I think this is a major point and reason for the current high prices that is getting drowned out by all the shill bidding talk.

High prices for stuff like this would/will not be surprising in the least. What is surprising is how high how fast prices went. I have no way of knowing if shill bidding is happening, nor could i ever prove it, it just seems fishy that two user IDs popped on most of the auctions, including some duplicate listings for drastically different amounts.
Shilling isn't something I would usually even think of but there are enough flags popping up for me to really think it over. At the end of the day most of these would go for a decent chunk of change anyway. In a few days as auctions come closer to the end it will be interesting to see how many more people jump in.
 

athletics07

Member
Nov 10, 2013
883
0
Looks like all the '99 Ultra Masterpieces from clean sweep auctions that did not originally sell are back on eBay, graded by PSA. Seeing those grades makes me want to double check the ones I have. I don't remember seeing anything that would warrant those grades...just minor chipping.
 

forgerelli

Member
Apr 4, 2013
383
8
On the 1999 Ultra Masterpice's, I'm glad to see they are graded by PSA and not Beckett. PSA usually does not grade sheet cut cards, where Beckett will grade anything. I feel better that my Mariano is at least a real card.

On the Pinnacle bankruptcy cards, there's no Mo so I'm not obsessively researching this but I will say that PWCC does make a decent effort to police their listings. They pulled a fake Mariano auto when I pointed it out to them. The consignor sent it with a PSA sticker and cert but they took my word for it knowing my Mo collection. They will also ban a bidder forever if they are caught shilling. For guys with high feedback like that, I'm assuming they're either serious collectors or flippers and getting banned by THE biggest ebay seller out there would hurt. I'm sure some shilling gets missed, but I would bet that they are watching those listings closely. If you see something truly suspicious point it out to them, they will respond.

I've read dozens of threads talking about why PWCC gets higher prices for their listings than others and I can tell you as someone that buys some decent high end stuff, that they simply have the goods. Not just the good cards, but the best examples of the good cards. I wanted a 1975 George Brett in a PSA 9, and not just any 9, but a perfectly centered one. Guess where I bought it...

I spent a good chunk of my downtime the last 3 days just looking through their new listings. One nice cards leads me to another which leads me to another, and so on. I think I have 50 cards of theirs on my watch list. It's so easy to get caught up bidding before doing some research to make sure you're not paying too much.

Scott F
 

onionring9

Active member
Administrator
Aug 7, 2008
3,490
12
So if these Epix sets were all packed issued, is it assumed that these particular Epix cards were backdoored or technically never put in packs because we know the consigner worked at Pinnacle and he has many other never released Pinnacles cards.

Also, who ever wins the Epix lots, I'd be very interested in the Barry Larkins.

Could have been. Just because they were pack issued doesn't mean they weren't bought at the bankruptcy sale. Doesn't look like there is a discernible difference between these and the pack issued ones though. Doesn't mean these weren't a test issue either.
 

stressreelief

New member
Dec 2, 2011
13
0
Let's get real about the 1998 Pinnacle auctions

Could have been. Just because they were pack issued doesn't mean they weren't bought at the bankruptcy sale. Doesn't look like there is a discernible difference between these and the pack issued ones though. Doesn't mean these weren't a test issue either.

Guys , There is just too many indicators that show something shady is going on . I have some inside information as two of my closest friends have purchased Jeter cards directly from the consignor and even after the purchase there have been issues with seller giving both of them misinformation as to what he still had left for sale . To this day , none of us knows the extent of what he actually purchased in the deal . My problems with these auctions are as follows :
1 - A handful of these cards had buy it now prices that were not hit , but now the prices are are higher auction style ?
2 - The two bidders in question have never bid on any of the rare cards from these individual players before and they have massive feedback ?
3 - I wouldn't care much about my feedback if i am staring at a large 5 figure/low 6 figure payday sometime next week !
4 - With that kind of feedback , there is no way you would bid up these prices . Any true collector would not do this to himself and we all use sniping sites to not tip our hand that we are interested in a particular piece .

Like any good umpire , just call it like you see it !

Good luck to any of you that get involved with these auctions . It is already too rich for me !
As far as the three lots that were distributed in the Zenith product , the bankruptcy occurred around the time Zenith was released so it is also possible that they never finished packaging the full printing of Zenith and these may have been eventually inserted into those packs . I also agree that they might have been replacements that were held back . Either way , you may never get a chance to own the Emeralds again ! John ( stressreelief , #3 Derek Jeter PSA Master Registry )
 

chief7575

Member
Feb 1, 2010
188
4
Regarding some of the 98 Pinnacle auctions... if these 2 bidders were so interested in these cards they are driving the prices up on, why haven't they scooped up the available and much lower priced cards from the same sets that another individual seller has for sale? Just my thoughts.
 

RustyGreerFan

Active member
Jun 10, 2010
2,496
4
Gastonia, NC
I just realized this card will soon have six HOFers on it. Even though some were well on their way, they were not slam dunks in 1996. Chipper was the riskiest at the time with just one full season under his belt. The football one comes close, but they had some easy selections (Marino and Rice) and then inexplicably threw Jeff Blake on there.


1996 Pinnacle - [Base] - Foil #399 - Frank Thomas, Cal Ripken Jr., Greg Maddux, Mike Piazza, Chipper Jones, Ken Griffey Jr.
Courtesy of COMC.com
 

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