If the topps company were to get sold.

Seems unlikely this will work out well for us collectors. Our segment of the market is worth less than the "BUNT" app... that kinda says it all right there.

Why do you guys think that Panini buying Topps would be a good thing? What would they do differently?

bobthewondercat77 said:

Seems unlikely this will work out well for us collectors. Our segment of the market is worth less than the "BUNT" app... that kinda says it all right there.

Why do you guys think that Panini buying Topps would be a good thing? What would they do differently?

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It would bring back donruss baseball products. It would extend topps chrome football. It would give us topps chrome basketball.

Paint me ignorant, but I just don't see Bunt lasting or being worth much over the future. Buying the company based on projections of value for some game/app is a bad idea.

Now...if Panini purchased topps, they'd be a juggernaut for sure. And it would likely usher in a good chunk of products I think collectors will love.

But to buy it based on the value of any of their digital stuff is short sighted.

And I too would like to know how they indebted themselves so much.

So, if panini did buy topps, would panini branded products include logos?

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BBCgalaxee said:

So, if panini did buy topps, would panini branded products include logos?

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I'd think MLB would work some deal , additional $ , for them to include Panini branded logos. If someone like Panini was able to purchase Topps , if they could get the leagues to approve them have logo's cards from both Panini / Donruss and Topps lines in each sport , it would be very important. I would think costs could be cut as well if the amount of companies bidding for autos / game used etc was cut. It's an interesting thought. It would be creating competition, which we all like with different logo'd brands, but all through one parent company. Not sure they'd be able to crack into Hockey though until UD is done w their contract. I don't know everything about Topps non-card products and how much they are valued , but $300m plus for the card side is a big investment esp when you have league and player fees.

Ryan

RStadlerASU22 said:

I'd think MLB would work some deal , additional $ , for them to include Panini branded logos. If someone like Panini was able to purchase Topps , if they could get the leagues to approve them have logo's cards from both Panini / Donruss and Topps lines in each sport , it would be very important. I would think costs could be cut as well if the amount of companies bidding for autos / game used etc was cut. It's an interesting thought. It would be creating competition, which we all like with different logo'd brands, but all through one parent company. Not sure they'd be able to crack into Hockey though until UD is done w their contract. I don't know everything about Topps non-card products and how much they are valued , but $300m plus for the card side is a big investment esp when you have league and player fees.

Ryan

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Heres the thing, I don't know that they would have to pay a dime extra. Panini presents 2016 Topps Chrome Football

I don't know if the same would apply here, but I believe when Sirius and XM merged the MLB programming was not available to Sirius subscribers until the new SiriusXM signed a new contract with MLB.

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TenaciousJDD said:

I don't know if the same would apply here, but I believe when Sirius and XM merged the MLB programming was not available to Sirius subscribers until the new SiriusXM signed a new contract with MLB.

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It all depends on how its branded.

in this situation the licensee has the right to produce a set amount of products without oversight from the licensor. If one of the products is Panini presents Topps Chrome that issue is worked around.

Topps is flat out getting their butt kicked by Panini. Topps has been relying on just their name for the last few years. Take the NSCC for example. Was there a Topps presence there? Did they do ANYTHING whatsoever for the collectors, or to improve their brand? NOPE, a BIG NOPE. Panini has their wrapper redemption, redemption trade in, VIP party, other giveaways, a HUGE space, working with breakers and having live breaks at their space, etc etc etc. It is very apparent to me that Panini is going to do whatever it takes to take over as the #1 sports card company, they are close now, and will FLY BY Topps very soon and never look back.

cgilmo said:

Heres the thing, I don't know that they would have to pay a dime extra. Panini presents 2016 Topps Chrome Football

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Possibly depending on the language and limits in the contracts. I'm sure Panini would want , say Panini Flawless Baseball w logos as well as Topps branded products. So if they were limited in the contract by amount of sets , then I could see a reup charge. Unless they completely scale back the brands


Ryan

IF Panini did indeed buy Topps, I think Topps should remain baseball only because of the Topps heritage with baseball. Panini then picks up where they shine best with football, hockey & basketball.

Then Panini can have Donruss as a premier, higher end baseball product. Would Donruss National Treasures sound good? I think so. Remove the Panini name from any and all baseball product, although we all would know who owned it.

One can dream a little, eh?

Fordman

In honor of the REAL sharks on the occasion of Shark Week:

Entering the Shark Tank is Michael Eisner, trying to sell the sharks his business.

Michael: Good evening sharks. My partners and I are here looking for a $450 million investment for 100% of the business.

(describing Topps here)

Kevin: I may be "Mr. Wonderful", but your company is far from wonderful. I"m out.

Mark: It's a great thing to be on the league side of licensing deals than on your side, getting raked over the coals to have licensing. I"m out.

Lori: This is not the crap and trash that sells on QVC. I'm out.

Damon: $200 million in debt. Your company should be rolling in dough printing little pieces of paper. I"m out.

IUjapander said:

I found it interesting that when Topps was sold in 2007 it had 0 debt (one of the reasons it was so attractive to a group of flippers). So in seven years the groups racked up $200+ million in debt. On what? They haven't hired anyone, no expansion has happened, and it most definitely hasn't gone into any type of research or product development.

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The debt is from the deal that Eisner et al put together to buy topps. They didn't just write a check for $400 million to buy out the holders of topps stock. They went to a bank (or ins company or investment bank) and said we would like to borrow $200 million against the assets of topps. We'll use that + some of our money to pay off the shareholders. After the deal we own toops, topps owe $200 million to others.

So they invest $200 million of their money and borrow the $200 million. They hope that the company makes enough money to pay the interest and have some earnings left over. Then they grow the company so it produces more earnings and is more valuable. Later they hope to sell the company for more (much more than $400 mill) - if they can get $600 mill, they pay the loan off and their $200 million is now $400 million. And it is capital gains, so while we plug away and pay 25 0r 28% taxes they pay 15% on the $200 mill.

the problem, while the market has gone up and many corporations are worth more, I don't think topps is worth much more than they paid, so they won;t make a huge amount of money.

The main takeaway I saw here from the article is that the trading card business (outside of the digital space) is considered problematic and investors would not buy it.

Thus it seems likely to me that a sale of Topps at this point would be another set of people reevaluating whether they want to stay in the physical trading card sector which is declining and low-margin, or focus their energies in the digital space where profits can scale up exponentially.

Sounds dangerous to me, and the introduction of new lines of card products was not at all implied as far as I can tell...

bobthewondercat77 said:

The main takeaway I saw here from the article is that the trading card business (outside of the digital space) is considered problematic and investors would not buy it.

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If Panini is patient, they may even be able to get a MLBP license for a lot less money. Instead of writing a $400m+ check to acquire topps, let topps **** up their business that they don't have the resources to pay the MLBP license fees and the MLBP will strip it from them for non-payment and likely give it to Panini for $20-25m or whatever amount per year it is for the MLBP license... definitely a lot less than hundreds of millions of dollars to get a MLBP license in their portfolio.

I don't see why Topps would sell now. By working smarter and cutting some stuff, they can easily use that exclusive deal to grow the business without spending much to develop new stuff...

Panini would have to be complete, utter idiots to purchase Topps and not make base Topps in each of their three sports and Bowman/Chrome. The average person, when they think of sports trading cards, thinks of Topps. It would be like Pepsi buying Coca Cola and not selling Coke products.

James52411 said:

Panini would have to be complete, utter idiots to purchase Topps and not make base Topps in each of their three sports and Bowman/Chrome. The average person, when they think of sports trading cards, thinks of Topps. It would be like Pepsi buying Coca Cola and not selling Coke products.

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DING!

Does UD still have enough Dollars/equity/assets sitting around to make another run at buying Topps?

If I remember correctly, didn't they make a better Offer at the last Topps sale? Since they've gotten new leadership, I think most Collectors have enjoyed their work.

And paging BG [MENTION=1948]Leaf[/MENTION] to see if he wants to chime in...