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HOF '18 Results (43%)

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death2redemptions

New member
Feb 4, 2016
12,488
0
The Carolina on the Southern side
Greatest? Ken Griffey. Etc etc. HOF ANDREW Jones. If
We put Andrew Jones in the HOF then it needs to close. That’s not even an argument in this conversation.

There are currently over *one hundred* players in the HOF with a career WAR lower than ANDRUW Jones 62.9 (including Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Harmon Killebrew) and since 50+ WAR is considered the HOF eligible mark, him making the HOF would be far from a reason to shut the HOF doors. Much as in the case with Ozzie Smith, his defense alone is enough to put him in the conversation.

He is not Ozzie Smith:rolleyes:

I'm assuming he meant greatest defensive center fielder, not greatest among all positions and he would be accurate if that was what he intended to say, as Andurw Jones is the all-time defensive WAR leader among outfielders. He ranks 20th among all positions. Ozzie Smith is of course, first.
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
6,169
4,057
It seems everyone is ranked against the elite of the elite nowadays. If you were not Willie Mays level, you don't deserve it. if you are not Babe Ruth reincarnated, you are out.

There will always be snubs that deserve to be enshrined and there are always going to be a small percentage of players who should be in but are never considered strong enough candidates due to sentence one above!

I got some real issues with the HOF voters. Some of these writers are so damn arrogant like they're the highest of baseball genius and us fans are simpletons who could never understand such a complex game. Then there was some DB from Cleveland who only voted for Omar and Thome since they were the only two who played there. And lastly, some voters act as if their vote grants a player immortality, it's a building, for fans, they have to get over themselves....done

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chadgwynn

Member
Jun 13, 2011
288
4
There are currently over *one hundred* players in the HOF with a career WAR lower than ANDRUW Jones 62.9 (including Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Harmon Killebrew) and since 50+ WAR is considered the HOF eligible mark, him making the HOF would be far from a reason to shut the HOF doors. Much as in the case with Ozzie Smith, his defense alone is enough to put him in the conversation.



I'm assuming he meant greatest defensive center fielder, not greatest among all positions and he would be accurate if that was what he intended to say, as Andurw Jones is the all-time defensive WAR leader among outfielders. He ranks 20th among all positions. Ozzie Smith is of course, first.

The war and 20-50 years ago means nothing. Andrew jones is NOT A HALL OF FAMER. I’d give you 100-1 odds on that I was that strong on Mattingly and was right. Mattingly was was second favorite player growing up and dominated baseball for 5 years but his back blew out and people that that was enough, clearly it wasn’t.

If Andrew Jones is a hall of famer
So is mark lemke. I mean come on.

Good luck.


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MGiuseffi

Member
Aug 22, 2008
388
0
Do y'all expect a bump in prices for chipper, vlad and Thome once all the ballots are counted?

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WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,733
1,498
Oklahoma
"Edgar Martinez should have been elected years ago. David Ortiz will probably be 1st Ballot and he isn't half the player Edgar was."

What baseball have you been watching?

Edgar Martinez - 65.5 career fWAR in 8,672 career PAs

David Ortiz - 50.7 career fWAR in 10,091 career PAs

Career Slash lines:
Edgar - .312/.418/.515
Ortiz - .286/.380/.552

Career wRC+:
Edgar 147
Ortiz 140

Papi hit for a little more power in a bandbox in a more offensive era better than Martinez did in the Kingdome and Safeco where home runs went to die. In every other facet of hitting Martinez was much better than Ortiz and it shows when using park adjusted stats. It isn't even close.

Ortiz will get in because of his personality and the postseason stuff when Martinez was a much superior player.
 

Brewer Andy

Active member
Aug 10, 2008
9,634
21
I do a little for a bit. Especially chipper.


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I feel like Chipper would get the least of the three mentioned. I think his induction was a forgone conclusion comparatively. He is more identifiable to a large fan base but he’s also the least likable of the three so that evens that out in my mind. Always interesting to watch and find out either way


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WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,733
1,498
Oklahoma
I hope wizard of oz doesn’t mean Ozzie Smith. Omar Vizquel is one of if not the best overall non power hitting shortstop to ever play the game. And if Ozzie Smith is in he is automatic. The Hoffman statement makes no sense especially with no player on his team as you said stated. He is most definitely I hall of famer and if he is not in your opinion then he is not because of specialized position. Which means Edgar is NO WAY a hall of famer. You do know before Marino Hoffman was the leader in saves and although he really is borderline the point of the argument was about Edgar. You can’t have your cake and eat it to. Edgar yes Hoffman no. Ozzie yes Omar no.

You may need to do some more research.


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You just said Omar Vizquel was a better player than Ozzie Smith and I'm the one that needs to do some research? Wow, that's one hell of a bold statement. I'm surprised you can say something like that with a straight face. Vizquel wasn't even a league average bat for his position for his era, much less a good hitting shortstop. Career fWAR? Ozzie 67.6 in ~2,500 games to Vizquel's 42.6 in ~3,000 games. Vizquel played about 20% more games to accrue 67% of Ozzie's value as a player. They're not even remotely close to each other in value. Ozzie was so much better I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

Jay Witasick was better than Hoffman many years they played together. Heath Bell was a much better pitcher for the last couple years Hoffman was in San Diego. Just because Hoffman got the saves doesn't mean he was the best pitcher in that bullpen. Saves are almost as worthless a stat as pitcher wins. I'm well aware Hoffman was the career saves leader before Rivera. Big whoop. He pitched for 100 years and managers kept throwing him out there for the 9th.

The war and 20-50 years ago means nothing. Andrew jones is NOT A HALL OF FAMER. I’d give you 100-1 odds on that I was that strong on Mattingly and was right. Mattingly was was second favorite player growing up and dominated baseball for 5 years but his back blew out and people that that was enough, clearly it wasn’t.

If Andrew Jones is a hall of famer
So is mark lemke. I mean come on.

Good luck.

Lemke accrued a grand total of 7 fWAR in his 11 year career. Andruw Jones had three individual seasons that were better than that. Just because you can't look at the stats and video and realize that Andruw Jones is the greatest defensive centerfielder of all time, and it isn't close, doesn't mean he's Mark Lemke.
 

chadgwynn

Member
Jun 13, 2011
288
4
I feel like Chipper would get the least of the three mentioned. I think his induction was a forgone conclusion comparatively. He is more identifiable to a large fan base but he’s also the least likable of the three so that evens that out in my mind. Always interesting to watch and find out either way


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I get your point but chipper is the card that will go up because of popularity. The other two are niche player collectors and no one will buy their cards just to have one. On the other hand chipper or brave fans will jump in. Just my opinion.


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michaelstepper

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
8,211
519
southeast Alaska
everyone's going to disagree with another's choice. let's not result to insulting eachother.

I don't believe Omar or andruw are HOF. but we all know lesser players are already in.
 

bstanwood

Well-known member
Sep 24, 2016
3,666
332
Mystic, CT
I try not to use people who are already in the hall influence my thoughts on who should go in. I look at someone like Vizquel as an electric defender, best of his generation to my eye, but I wouldn't vote for him, his bat might as well have gone to a pitcher most of the time.
Jones for me is a harder decision, amazing defender, much better than Vizquel with the stick though. To me he is not, I understand the argument. He doesn't have to be Willie Mays to make it, but for me he is just not an all time great.
 

death2redemptions

New member
Feb 4, 2016
12,488
0
The Carolina on the Southern side
I try not to use people who are already in the hall influence my thoughts on who should go in. I look at someone like Vizquel as an electric defender, best of his generation to my eye, but I wouldn't vote for him, his bat might as well have gone to a pitcher most of the time.
Jones for me is a harder decision, amazing defender, much better than Vizquel with the stick though. To me he is not, I understand the argument. He doesn't have to be Willie Mays to make it, but for me he is just not an all time great.

Andruw Jones was one of those potential all-time greats who did not age well. The moment he turned 30, left the Braves & packed on a ton of weight his career took a turn for the worst. Even as a Braves player in his 20's he never really hit for average or put up a good OBP but his power & defense were legit enough to get him there if he followed that similar trajectory throughout his 30's. But instead he ate too many cheeseburgers, couldn't make contact, beat up women & ended up in Japan.
 

chadgwynn

Member
Jun 13, 2011
288
4
everyone's going to disagree with another's choice. let's not result to insulting eachother.

I don't believe Omar or andruw are HOF. but we all know lesser players are already in.

Listen my opinion is my opinion as others there’s no insults here. The insults are people like you butting in and putting your voice in we’re it don’t belong. Then you make a weak effort about the subject. Everyone’s going to disagree with other’s choice. (Really, that’s a bright statement), mind your business. Have an opinion or stay out of my business and choices as well
As others.

It’s a forum with excitement without being live with the person. It’s fun.

Again mind your business. What are you a mediator.


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Austin

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2008
5,706
41
Dallas, Texas
I look at someone like Vizquel as an electric defender, best of his generation to my eye, but I wouldn't vote for him, his bat might as well have gone to a pitcher most of the time.
I think you and others underestimate the hitter Vizquel was. He was a .272 lifetime hitter, not .240 like people assume.
He hit .333 one year and he was 123 hits short of 3,000.

Yes, I know those 2,877 hits were largely a result of him playing forever, but every player with more lifetime hits than Vizquel is either a Hall of Famer, not eligible (Rose) not eligible yet (Jeter, Ichiro, Beltre) or a steroid user (Bonds, ARod, Palmeiro). That's extremely impressive.
 

michaelstepper

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
8,211
519
southeast Alaska
Listen my opinion is my opinion as others there’s no insults here. The insults are people like you butting in and putting your voice in we’re it don’t belong. Then you make a weak effort about the subject. Everyone’s going to disagree with other’s choice. (Really, that’s a bright statement), mind your business. Have an opinion or stay out of my business and choices as well
As others.

It’s a forum with excitement without being live with the person. It’s fun.

Again mind your business. What are you a mediator.


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I didn't call anyone out, specifically you. wtf is the problem.
 

alexs64

Active member
Jul 28, 2010
12,329
6
Moreno Valley, Ca
Listen my opinion is my opinion as others there’s no insults here. The insults are people like you butting in and putting your voice in we’re it don’t belong. Then you make a weak effort about the subject. Everyone’s going to disagree with other’s choice. (Really, that’s a bright statement), mind your business. Have an opinion or stay out of my business and choices as well
As others.

It’s a forum with excitement without being live with the person. It’s fun.

Again mind your business. What are you a mediator.


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Shut up, stupid.
 

Super Mario

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2009
18,242
85
Mushroom Kingdom
If Jim Edmonds was knocked out on his first try, the Hall of Fame voters shouldn’t even be allowed to include Andruw Jones on their ballot.

Edmonds > Jones in every way.
 

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