HOF 2019 Discussion

death2redemptions said:

My ballot would look exactly the same, just without Vizquel. I'd possibly leave out Andruw Jones too. I'm currently undecided with him.

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jbone17 said:

Sorry in advance if this topic appeared anywhere else ad nauseam; however, my ballot would be as follows if I had a vote:

Mariano Rivera

Self explanatory. Best reliever and one of the best postseason performers in history. There have been 12 men on the moon. Rivera has only allowed 11 postseason runs. Oh...his postseason ERA was 0.70 in 96 appearances.

Curt Schilling

Put your political views aside. Schilling is one of the best postseason performers in history. He has a career 79.6 bWAR in 20 seasons.

Mike Mussina

Finished with 270 victories and went out as a 20 game winner. He pitched his entire career in the AL East against steroid-injected phonies and still pitched to a career ERA of 3.68.

Edgar Martinez

Arguably the most feared DH in big league history next to David Ortiz. He used to murder my Yankees! Fun fact, he hit .625 against Mariano Rivera. If Harold *bleeping* Baines is in, you better put Edgar in. His career slash line .312/.418/.515. Goodness...


Andruw Jones

There wasn't a better defensive CF in the late 90's and early 2000's than Jones. Sorry. Not Bonds. Not Griffey. Not Edmonds. Jones had 10 consecutive gold glove awards between 1998-2007. Offensively speaking during that period, Jones never hit less than 25 homers. He drove in 100 runs on 5 occasions.

Roy Halladay

This one is obvious. A consistent workhorse that finished with a .659 winning percentage and 64.3 bWAR in 16 seasons. An 8 time all-star, 2 time Cy Young Winner and finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting on 7 occasions.

Omar Vizquel


He's the best defensive shortstop of our generation. Let's see another bozo play 24 seasons at such a demanding position so that whole "stat compiler" argument doesn't apply here. He's an 11 time gold glove award winner with 2,877 hits. In 12,013 plate appearances, he only struck out 1,087 times. Yep...


Fred McGriff

How this man is not a Hall of Famer is beyond me. Career slash line of .284/.377/.509 which includes 493 long balls. This man was one of the most dangerous hitters of the early 90s. Put him in!!!

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WizardofOz1982 said:

Elephants in the Room - i.e. Put them in already:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens - This applies to all four. I don't care that they used steroids. Players have been using PEDs since the beginning of the game and nobody is trying to throw Ruth, Aaron, Mays, or Mantle out so these four should be in.
Mark McGwire
Gary Sheffield

Should be shoo-ins:
Mariano Rivera - Yes, no explanation needed.
Curt Schilling - Yes, his political views are the only thing keeping him out which is ridiculous.
Mike Mussina - Yes, he's very, very underrated. Pitched his whole career in the AL East and still won 270 games.
Edgar Martinez - Absolutely yes, It's stupid that he isn't already in as the greatest DH ever.
Andruw Jones - Yes, He's the best defensive CF of all time by the second largest margin at any position and had an above average bat with good counting stats.
Roy Halladay - Yes, He was dominant over a ten year stretch and was nails in the postseason.
Billy Wagner - Yes, He's better than Hoffman by quite a bit. In the modern era of the closer (used 1985 to present for the sample) he's the second best behind Rivera.
Scott Rolen - Yes, He's a top 5 defender all time at 3B and he had a well above average bat. The numbers from his peak are ridiculous and had Hee-Seop Choi not destroyed his shoulder his stat line would look even better, probably including 400 HRs.
Larry Walker - Yes, Dude hit wherever he played and was a 5 tool player. We have plenty of adjusted stats to better represent his time at Coors and they all still show him as a great hitter and defender, both home and away.
Sammy Sosa - Yes, See above regarding steroids. Even if he and Mac hadn't saved baseball in 1998, his stat line says put him in anyway.

Borderline:
Fred McGriff - Leaning yes because the 1994 strike probably cost him the 500 HR club but I wouldn't fight for him to get in if someone wanted to argue the other side.
Andy Pettitte - Leaning no because he's kind of Mussina-lite but I can see the argument for putting him in.

Why does this guy get so much love?:
Omar Vizquel - No. His bat was as bad (career 83 wRC+ is well below average even among shortstops) as his defense was good. The compiler argument certainly applies. He never broke 200 hits in a season. His career OBP is .336. His slugging is barely higher at .352. He averaged 125 hits a year. That's...ummm...that's not real good for a guy who didn't hit much but singles and didn't walk much. If singles slap hitter who hung around forever playing good defense is your calling card then you better get to 3,000 hits in a 23 year career.

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Topnotchsy said:

I don't understand why Andruw Jones is not more widely viewed as deserving between his bat and incredible glove.

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jbone17 said:

The only knock I have against Wagner is his awful postseason mark. His 10+ ERA is definitely a big red flag.

I love Rolen don't get me wrong, but only 316 homers and just a tick over 2,000 hits ain't going to cut it. Same goes for Walker. The guy had one hell of a peak, but his stats scream HOF of very good.

McGwire and Sosa had impact and made baseball fun as hell, but one cannot omit their grave errors of staining their legacies. McGwire when he lied in front of Congress and Sosa flat out told the papers "I'll be awaiting my call to the hall" even though he was a roider and corked his bat. Lol

Vizquel played 24 seasons at a grueling position. He was the model of consistency. He's another guy that got screwed by the 1994 strike. He easily would've surpassed the 3,000 hit threshold, just as McGriff would've accrued 500 long balls.

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WizardofOz1982 said:

That's a valid point with Wagner but I value his 903 regular seasons much more heavily than his 11.1 postseason innings. His postseason ERA was 9.26, not 10+, but his postseason xFIP is 3.28. That's not normal dominant Wagner but being unlucky over 11 innings shouldn't override dominance over 900+ innings.

Rolen is the 7th best 3B of all time by fWAR and he did it in about 70% of the PAs that the guys ahead of him did due to the shoulder injuries. He ranks right up there with the best for overall value and by peak he's the 3rd or 4th best all time. Walker is much the same argument of a career being all peak but short due to injury. He is a top 10 RF of all time and he did it in about 80% of the PAs of the guys above him. Both guys are much better players than Fred McGriff.

You don't like PED users and that's a valid stance. Are you ready to remove Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Cap Anson, and 90% of the rest of the players in the Hall of Fame for cheating/PED use? If not, then there is no reason to exclude Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, et al. If you want to keep cheaters out of the Hall then I'll gladly go the Hall of Lou Gehrig, Stan Musial, and Christy Mathewson with you because those would be the only three guys left to enshrine. McGwire never lied in front of Congress. Palmeiro did. Sosa forgot he could speak English. There are lots of a-holes in the Hall. That isn't a valid reason to exclude someone given all the guys already enshrined.

Vizquel wasn't going to get 123 hits in the 200 or so At Bats he lost out on while healthy in 1994. He was also injured for a good chunk of that year. 7 Homers for McGriff in 200 more At Bats? I buy that because he was averaging 1 HR/14 At Bats then. 200 At bats would have meant about 14 more homers on average. I think 7 would have been a lock. An average Vizquel season worth of hits in 1/3 of a season however? Not a chance. Ozzie is in because he was the greatest defensive player of all time at any position. Vizquel wasn't that good defensively (about 80% as good as Ozzie) and he was worse with the bat. He isn't a Hall of Famer. Even if he'd gotten to 3,000 hits I'd argue he isn't.

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jbone17 said:

Wagner was dominant as all hell, but he's 50 saves under Lee Smith and not even close to Hoffman or Rivera. We're splitting hairs on the postseason numbers. Very good, but not HOF worth with these many players on the ballot.

Rolen was good, but that's about it. If we just use WAR to evaluate a player, we're looking at this all wrong. He's in the HOF of very good. McGriff was one of the best power hitters in his era. He is certainly deserving.

Please educate me on how Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Cobb and the like cheated. Those men are elite. No hesitation required. Yes, Mike Schmidt admitted to using greenies, but were they illegal? Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the rest of the lot knew what they were doing. They altered their bodies in an attempt to gain an advantage. Pitchers careers were ruined because of these charlatans. Yes, in the 1900s pitchers doctored the ball with tobacco juice and used bottle caps to groove the ball for instance. The baseball Hall of Fame isn't perfect. No one is making that claim. However, PED users are another evil.

Vizquel was literally averaging more than a hit per game in 1994 in those 69 that he played. Regardless, you can't omit a guy that played for 24 years at a grueling position. Come on...not a good defender? His 11 gold gloves say otherwise.

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WizardofOz1982 said:

McGriff played in the same era as 5 of the 9 guys to hit 600 home runs (one with 700+) as well as multiple 500 home run guys. I'll take WAR out of the equation and just use old school stats. He was 41st in slugging during his career and 31st as a hitter over all tied with John Kruk at a 134 wRC+. He wasn't one of the premier power hitters of his era. He was a quality hitter but lets not pretend he was Lou Gehrig.

Okay. Accepting your statement that PEDs are another level of evil...all the players I listed were admitted users of PEDs, be they greenies or steroid precursors, or they were a-holes/racists/horrible human beings that would violate the same morality clause that voters tout to keep Bonds, Clemens, et al out. You can't have it both ways. Either all cheaters/PED users/horrible human beings are in or they aren't. To say that some PEDs are okay and others aren't is laughable. To say that's it's okay for Cap Anson to segregate baseball for 60+ years but it's not okay for Sammy Sosa to be smug is an indefensible view. It's also very naive to think that pitchers didn't benefit from steroid use in that period just as much as hitters. Steroids actually do much more for pitchers than they do hitters and more pitchers have tested positive than hitters by a wide margin.

Saying that McGriff is Hall of Fame worthy and Rolen isn't is taking the fact that Rolen was a top 5 all time defender at a much tougher position than McGriff (who was a terrible defender at one of the lowest spots on the defensive spectrum) and saying "Eh defense doesn't matter anyway and McGriff hit home runs." That's not an argument that holds water. Both sides of the ball count.

Rafael Palmeiro won a Gold Glove in 1999 for playing 1B for 28 games and DHing another 128 games. I give Gold Glove totals very little credence but in Vizquel's case about 6 of the ones he won were warranted maybe. He won some laughable ones too like in 1994 when he only played 69 games. He wasn't even the best defender of his era in the AL. That was Cal Ripken who should have about 6 more Gold Gloves than he does.

He's the 9th most valuable shortstop defensively all time. I left out part of a sentence there in my last post. I meant to say Vizquel is about 80% as good defensively as Ozzie which is still pretty darn good (though after looking again he's about 65% as good as Ozzie was, at least by value accrued). Problem is he's also the 20th worst offensive shortstop of all time hanging out on the leaderboard with luminaries like Rey Ordonez, Cesar Izturis, and Rabbit Warstler.

Ozzie is considered the model for weak bat, great defense shortstops in the Hall. He's the 255th worst offensive shortstop in history. Vizquel put up almost four times as much negative value with the bat as Ozzie. Even giving Vizquel credit for his longevity and cutting the sample to shortstops that got 10,000 at bats in the bigs, he's the second worst in that group ahead of only Rabbit Maranville. At 8,000 plate appearances Vizquel is the 6th worst by rank and Ozzie is 15th.

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jbone17 said:

Sorry in advance if this topic appeared anywhere else ad nauseam; however, my ballot would be as follows if I had a vote:

Mariano Rivera

Self explanatory. Best reliever and one of the best postseason performers in history. There have been 12 men on the moon. Rivera has only allowed 11 postseason runs. Oh...his postseason ERA was 0.70 in 96 appearances.

Curt Schilling

Put your political views aside. Schilling is one of the best postseason performers in history. He has a career 79.6 bWAR in 20 seasons.

Mike Mussina

Finished with 270 victories and went out as a 20 game winner. He pitched his entire career in the AL East against steroid-injected phonies and still pitched to a career ERA of 3.68.

Edgar Martinez

Arguably the most feared DH in big league history next to David Ortiz. He used to murder my Yankees! Fun fact, he hit .625 against Mariano Rivera. If Harold *bleeping* Baines is in, you better put Edgar in. His career slash line .312/.418/.515. Goodness...


Andruw Jones

There wasn't a better defensive CF in the late 90's and early 2000's than Jones. Sorry. Not Bonds. Not Griffey. Not Edmonds. Jones had 10 consecutive gold glove awards between 1998-2007. Offensively speaking during that period, Jones never hit less than 25 homers. He drove in 100 runs on 5 occasions.

Roy Halladay

This one is obvious. A consistent workhorse that finished with a .659 winning percentage and 64.3 bWAR in 16 seasons. An 8 time all-star, 2 time Cy Young Winner and finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting on 7 occasions.

Omar Vizquel


He's the best defensive shortstop of our generation. Let's see another bozo play 24 seasons at such a demanding position so that whole "stat compiler" argument doesn't apply here. He's an 11 time gold glove award winner with 2,877 hits. In 12,013 plate appearances, he only struck out 1,087 times. Yep...


Fred McGriff

How this man is not a Hall of Famer is beyond me. Career slash line of .284/.377/.509 which includes 493 long balls. This man was one of the most dangerous hitters of the early 90s. Put him in!!!

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WizardofOz1982 said:

Elephants in the Room - i.e. Put them in already:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens - This applies to all four. I don't care that they used steroids. Players have been using PEDs since the beginning of the game and nobody is trying to throw Ruth, Aaron, Mays, or Mantle out so these four should be in.
Mark McGwire
Gary Sheffield

Should be shoo-ins:
Mariano Rivera - Yes, no explanation needed.
Curt Schilling - Yes, his political views are the only thing keeping him out which is ridiculous.
Mike Mussina - Yes, he's very, very underrated. Pitched his whole career in the AL East and still won 270 games.
Edgar Martinez - Absolutely yes, It's stupid that he isn't already in as the greatest DH ever.
Andruw Jones - Yes, He's the best defensive CF of all time by the second largest margin at any position and had an above average bat with good counting stats.
Roy Halladay - Yes, He was dominant over a ten year stretch and was nails in the postseason.
Billy Wagner - Yes, He's better than Hoffman by quite a bit. In the modern era of the closer (used 1985 to present for the sample) he's the second best behind Rivera.
Scott Rolen - Yes, He's a top 5 defender all time at 3B and he had a well above average bat. The numbers from his peak are ridiculous and had Hee-Seop Choi not destroyed his shoulder his stat line would look even better, probably including 400 HRs.
Larry Walker - Yes, Dude hit wherever he played and was a 5 tool player. We have plenty of adjusted stats to better represent his time at Coors and they all still show him as a great hitter and defender, both home and away.
Sammy Sosa - Yes, See above regarding steroids. Even if he and Mac hadn't saved baseball in 1998, his stat line says put him in anyway.

Borderline:
Fred McGriff - Leaning yes because the 1994 strike probably cost him the 500 HR club but I wouldn't fight for him to get in if someone wanted to argue the other side.
Andy Pettitte - Leaning no because he's kind of Mussina-lite but I can see the argument for putting him in.

Why does this guy get so much love?:
Omar Vizquel - No. His bat was as bad (career 83 wRC+ is well below average even among shortstops) as his defense was good. The compiler argument certainly applies. He never broke 200 hits in a season. His career OBP is .336. His slugging is barely higher at .352. He averaged 125 hits a year. That's...ummm...that's not real good for a guy who didn't hit much but singles and didn't walk much. If singles slap hitter who hung around forever playing good defense is your calling card then you better get to 3,000 hits in a 23 year career.

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