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Barry Larkin -vs- Jimmy Rollins

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tpeichel

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2008
15,639
119
As Rollins starts to hit more milestones it's interesting to start comparing him to other hall of fame shortstops. Larkin is no doubt the better overall player, but J-Roll doesn't embarass himself and will end up passing Larkin in many categories. Defensively, Rollins can hold his own with any of the hall of fame shortstops and the only hall of fame shortstops better than Rollins offnesively at this point are Ripken, Larkin, Honus Wagner, Ernie Banks, Luke Appling, Joe Cronin, and eventually Jeter. (Not counting Yount because of multiple positions.) Did I miss anyone? There just aren't a lot of offensive shortstops in the HOF.

I don't know how you can keep someone out of the hall of fame if they are a Top 10 offensive player at that position and a fantastic defender as well.

Years
Larkin = 19
Rollins = 15

Hits
Larkin = 2340
Rollins = 2227

Runs
Larkin = 1389
Rollins = 1275

RBI
Larkin = 960
Rollins = 854

Doubles
Larkin = 441
Rollins = 465

Triples
Larkin = 76
Rollins = 109

HR
Larkin = 198
Rollins = 205

SB
Larkin = 379
Rollins = 432

AVE/OBP/SLG
Larkin = .295/.371/.444
Rollins = .268/.328/.425

OPS+
Larkin = 116
Rollins = 97

Career WAR
Larkin = 70.2
Rollins = 43.0

Gold Gloves
Larkin = 3
Rollins = 4

Career Fielding %
Larkin = .975
Rollins = .983

MVPs
Larkin = 1
Rollins = 1
 

gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
38,617
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Near Philly
Thoughts on Ozzie Smith?

He, and Rizzuto and Mazeroski, are all NOs for me. I understand the Wizard's appeal, I loved watching him, but he's not a HOFer to me. And how the heck he got in way before Andre Dawson, even though they started eligibility the same year. That was a real head-scratcher to me...
 

tpeichel

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2008
15,639
119
I still don't think Larkin should have been voted in either...

So Barry Larkin is probably a Top 5 all-time offensive shortstop that is in the Hall with 4 gold gloves and you think he doesn't belong? Why?
 

gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
38,617
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To me, Cooperstown is pretty much a YEA or NEA kinda thing. Was he the, or near, dominant player at his position is usually the chief factor for me and I don't think Larkin, J-Rol or Ozzie ever were. Now did the fact that SS became an Offensive position more than before? Yeah, probably. Was Cal that much better than them? No, probably.

But my YEA/NEA test puts him, A-Rod and Jeter in, not Larkin or J-Rol.

Just my opinion. I have Utley, Howard and Lee in the same type of close, but not in area..
 

tpeichel

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2008
15,639
119
To me, Cooperstown is pretty much a YEA or NEA kinda thing. Was he the, or near, dominant player at his position is usually the chief factor for me and I don't think Larkin, J-Rol or Ozzie ever were. Now did the fact that SS became an Offensive position more than before? Yeah, probably. Was Cal that much better than them? No, probably.

But my YEA/NEA test puts him, A-Rod and Jeter in, not Larkin or J-Rol.

Just my opinion. I have Utley, Howard and Lee in the same type of close, but not in area..

So 12 All-Star game appearances, 9 Silver Sluggers and an MVP do not meet your "Was he the, or near, dominant player at his position" criteria? The shortstops you mentioned, Ripken and Arod have 8 and 6 Silver Sluggers at SS respectively. No SS in the history of the game has more Silver Slugger awards than Larkin (Derek Jeter only has 5). It seems like that would definitely meet your main criteria of dominance at a position that you require for the HOF, no?
 

tpeichel

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2008
15,639
119
He, and Rizzuto and Mazeroski, are all NOs for me. I understand the Wizard's appeal, I loved watching him, but he's not a HOFer to me. And how the heck he got in way before Andre Dawson, even though they started eligibility the same year. That was a real head-scratcher to me...

All-Time WAR for shortstops.

Honus Wagner 131
Arod 116
Ripken 95.5
George Davis 84.7
Robin Yount 77
Ozzie Smith 76.5
Luke Appling 74.5
Arky Vaughan 72.9
Jeter 71.8
Alan Trammell 70.4
Bobby Wallace 70.2
Barry Larkin 70.2
Ernie Banks 67.5
AVE HOF SS 66.7
Joe Cronin 66.4
Pee Wee Reese 66.3
Lou Boudreau 63.0
Jim Fregosi 48.7
Vizquel 45.3
Nomar 44.2
Rollins 43.2
Tulo 37.0
Jose Reyes 34.2
Hanley Ramirez 33.9

Ozzie Smith is a no-brainer HOFer. If you are a strong offensive player at the most demanding defensive positions like shortstop and catcher, you are a very valuable commodity. Few players are talented enough to stick at shortstop defensively their entire career. Ozzie Smith, Larkin, and probably Rollins will end up being in that category. Ozzie and Larkin are deserved HOFers. Jimmy is yet to be determined, but should be in the conversation.
 

gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
38,617
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Near Philly
So 12 All-Star game appearances, 9 Silver Sluggers and an MVP do not meet your "Was he the, or near, dominant player at his position" criteria? The shortstops you mentioned, Ripken and Arod have 8 and 6 Silver Sluggers at SS respectively. No SS in the history of the game has more Silver Slugger awards than Larkin (Derek Jeter only has 5). It seems like that would definitely meet your main criteria of dominance at a position that you require for the HOF, no?

If you look at his competition in the NL at that time, I'm pretty sure it's not an impressive list

As I said, he's not a HOFer and there is no problem with those that do. Same with Byleven, and Niekro. Stats may help their case, but are not the only factor. Otherwise, Ozzie and Larkin are better than BAnks, which is obviously flawed thinking...
 

jbhofmann

Active member
Mar 12, 2009
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Indiana
The thing that people don't remember is that Larkin likely has about 15 Gold Gloves if that Smith dude never played in the National League.
 

predatorkj

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
11,871
2
The fact that the WAR stat has Omar Vizquel so far down the list makes me think so much less of WAR now.
 

tpeichel

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2008
15,639
119
If you look at his competition in the NL at that time, I'm pretty sure it's not an impressive list

As I said, he's not a HOFer and there is no problem with those that do. Same with Byleven, and Niekro. Stats may help their case, but are not the only factor. Otherwise, Ozzie and Larkin are better than BAnks, which is obviously flawed thinking...

Nine silver sluggers means he offensively dominate the position and was a dominant SS of his era. You bring up Ernie Banks, but he only played 9 of his 19 seasons at SS, the rest of the time he played 1B. Larkin did it all at SS. Very few players put up his offensive numbers and also played the most demanding defensive position at a high level for his entire career. Larkin is one of a select few. Others can have a HOF full of left fielders and first basemen, I prefer a HOF that accurately reflects what is valuable on a baseball team.
 

tpeichel

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2008
15,639
119
The fact that the WAR stat has Omar Vizquel so far down the list makes me think so much less of WAR now.

Actually, he's pretty high up on the list when you consider all of the guys that have played SS in the major leagues.
 

markakis8

Active member
Oct 31, 2008
12,081
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20 years ago if you asked me if Jimmy Rollins is a HOFer, (and you have to assume has the same exact stats today) I would've said no way. But the game has changed. There are HOFers who should not be HOFers. And now we have to play the game "well if Ozzie Smith and Barry Larkin are HOFers...then Jimmy Rollins and Omar Vizquel should be HOFers" because...well it's true. Jimmy Rollins was/is just as good of a player as Larkin ever was. I've watched both their entire careers.

So if Rollins makes the HOF, I won't care. If he made the HOF 20 years ago, it would've upset me more. My whole point, the HOF is watered down and they might as well let them all in.
 

markakis8

Active member
Oct 31, 2008
12,081
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The thing that people don't remember is that Larkin likely has about 15 Gold Gloves if that Smith dude never played in the National League.

Meh, that's like saying Curt Schilling would have 3 Cy Youngs if he didn't pitch with Randy Johnson. He wasn't the best. Pure and simple.
 

gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
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Near Philly
I'm fine with Alan Trammel being in, even though I wouldn't vote for it. I personally think he was better than either Larkin or J-Roll...

And the stats are pretty close.
 
Last edited:

gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
38,617
3,198
Near Philly
20 years ago if you asked me if Jimmy Rollins is a HOFer, (and you have to assume has the same exact stats today) I would've said no way. But the game has changed. There are HOFers who should not be HOFers. And now we have to play the game "well if Ozzie Smith and Barry Larkin are HOFers...then Jimmy Rollins and Omar Vizquel should be HOFers" because...well it's true. Jimmy Rollins was/is just as good of a player as Larkin ever was. I've watched both their entire careers.

So if Rollins makes the HOF, I won't care. If he made the HOF 20 years ago, it would've upset me more. My whole point, the HOF is watered down and they might as well let them all in.

And you're a pretty big Rolins fan and collector, aren't you?

In fact, he pulled a J-Roll Superfractor for me in a 2011 BC player break..
 

gt2590

Super Moderator
Aug 17, 2008
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Well, I couldn't find the Voting on the Silver Slugger awards Larkin won, but in a couple of the years he didn't win, Wil Cordero ('91 Leaf Gold Rookie!) and Jay Bell won it.

Great player? Yeah. One of the best of the 90s? Yeah. HOFer? Not to me...
 

tpeichel

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2008
15,639
119
I'm fine with Alan Trammel being in, even though I wouldn't vote for it. I personally think he was better than either Larkin or J-Roll...

And the stats are pretty close.

I'm in agreement on Trammell. Hell of a player. Probably should have been the MVP in 1987. I'd rank the three of them Larkin, Trammell and Rollins.
 

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