Yadier Molina........I've been telling you.........

craiger122003 said:

My pick would be Yadi all day. While you make offensive arguments i would put him in the hall right now
for his defensive skills. Sadly those numbers are not even considered when it comes to the HOF. (If I am wrong
please lmk) All the catchers in the hall are there for mostly offensive numbers. The defensive game is something
that did not begin to be recognized until maybe 5 to 7 years ago.

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And would you put Tony Pena in the Hall of Fame?

Yadi is a really good player who has been hitting for average much more the past few years and is in the midst of what might be a career year. He could be the best defensive catcher of his era, but he's going to need to increase his run production stat categories to have any chance at the hall of fame.

CFD1415 said:

Even Though They Played Different Positions Ozzie Smith Made The Hall With His Defense Not His Offense

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Ozzie Smith made the Hall of Fame with his defense bc he was considered one of the, if not the, greatest defensive player at his position, ever.

I would also like to mention that Ted Simmons is somehow not in the HOF, this scumbag has a lot longer to go before him and the HOF should be seriously mentioned in the same sentence.

Simmons was good offensively and defensively as well. He was overshadowed by Johnny Bench. You know Simmons had to be good if I talk positively about him, he played for that suck ass team in St. Louis.

Here is a fun stat Yadi-v-Posey

Stolen bases given:
Yadi in his 10 year pro-career 284
Posey in his 5 year pro-career 193

Caught stealing in same period
Yadi 228
Posey 88

George_Calfas said:

Here is a fun stat Yadi-v-Posey

Stolen bases given:
Yadi in his 10 year pro-career 284
Posey in his 5 year pro-career 193

Caught stealing in same period
Yadi 228
Posey 88

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Those stats dont necesseraly reflect the catchers ability to throw rnners out. Pitchers are as much responsible for that.

elmalo said:

Those stats dont necesseraly reflect the catchers ability to throw rnners out. Pitchers are as much responsible for that.

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And each batter faces pitchers at a different rate and frequency yet we compare Batting Averages as if they are equal, BA is incumbent upon the pitcher and batter not just the batter. At some point you have to compare stats as if they are relative.

George_Calfas said:

Here is a fun stat Yadi-v-Posey

Stolen bases given:
Yadi in his 10 year pro-career 284
Posey in his 5 year pro-career 193

Caught stealing in same period
Yadi 228
Posey 88

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Technically speaking, Posey's career is more like 3 years + 2013 (the first year you're counting covers 7 games played and only 17 PA) and one of those years was derailed by injury. Molina's is more like 8.5 years +2013.

Molina's # of seasons with OPS+ > 100: 3 (2011 - 2013)
Posey's # os seasons with OPS+ > 100: all of them, with a low of 116 - the season he missed most of due to injury (excluding the 7-game 'season')

And Posey is supposedly better than passable defensively.

Nobody's denying that Posey isn't as good defensively as Molina. But to skip the idea that Posey's offense has been better than Molina's by enough to cover that difference is missing objectivity. Will that change over the course of the 2013 season? Maybe. Molina has a small advantage so far, but it's a long season.

George_Calfas said:

And each batter faces pitchers at a different rate and frequency yet we compare Batting Averages as if they are equal, BA is incumbent upon the pitcher and batter not just the batter. At some point you have to compare stats as if they are relative.

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No, it is actually very different.

elmalo said:

No, it is actually very different.

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Please explain how. I agree that pitcher delivery and mechanics affect a catchers ability to throw out a runner, but pitchers rotate throughout the year however the Cather is dealing with the same core group of Pitchers all year.

My point in the comparison is that Batters do not face the same pitcher the same amount of games or ABs. BA is affected by the pitchers that the batter faces throughout the year, if you see bad pitching, ie the NL West, a batters BA has the potential to be higher. StL, Pitt and Cincy have three of the four best ERAs in the NL which suggests that batters facing these teams will produce less. Players face division pitchers more than non-division pitchers. Thus the argument is similar due to scheduling rather than individual mechanics.

YadiMo put up consistently good stats on 2011 along nl catchers. Will always remember him favorably for helping me win a fantasy league that year

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Freedom Card Board mobile app

George_Calfas said:

Please explain how. I agree that pitcher delivery and mechanics affect a catchers ability to throw out a runner, but pitchers rotate throughout the year however the Cather is dealing with the same core group of Pitchers all year.

My point in the comparison is that Batters do not face the same pitcher the same amount of games or ABs. BA is affected by the pitchers that the batter faces throughout the year, if you see bad pitching, ie the NL West, a batters BA has the potential to be higher. StL, Pitt and Cincy have three of the four best ERAs in the NL which suggests that batters facing these teams will produce less. Players face division pitchers more than non-division pitchers. Thus the argument is similar due to scheduling rather than individual mechanics.

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It is different for those exact reasons. No matter what type of pitching is coming at you, if you are a good hitter it will average out. If you have a staff of pitchers who dont hold runners on or who are slow to the plate, it doesnt matter how good your arm is or how quick your release is, you have less of a chance to be successful. With throwing out baserunners you are at the mercy of the guy throwing the ball.

phillyfan0417 said:

Based on his current level of play, is there a catcher is baseball you'd take over molina?

Looking at his last 3 years and his all round game, its hard to find someone.

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Agreed. I hate the Cardinals but it'd be foolish to take anyone else at catcher right now with Yadier's much improvement in the batter's box. Couple that with his top-of-the-game defense, and it's not even a debate.

I think Wieters is the 2nd best defensive catcher in the game. I can only hope that - like Yadi did - he will sign a long team-friendly contract and improve offensively. If he turns out to be the hitter all prospectors thought he was going to be...with his defense, he WILL be the best catcher in the game. I'm holding my breath over here

elmalo said:

Those stats dont necesseraly reflect the catchers ability to throw rnners out. Pitchers are as much responsible for that.

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LOL, I think with that wide of a margin, we can compare the catcher's arms. Not like the margin was by 20 runners or something.

elmalo said:

It is different for those exact reasons. No matter what type of pitching is coming at you, if you are a good hitter it will average out. If you have a staff of pitchers who dont hold runners on or who are slow to the plate, it doesnt matter how good your arm is or how quick your release is, you have less of a chance to be successful. With throwing out baserunners you are at the mercy of the guy throwing the ball.

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It's not like Cardinals had a team full of pitchers quick to the plate and the Giants had a team full of pitchers that were slow to the plate for FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS.

The playing field in terms of pitchers who are slow/quick to the plate I'm sure has leveled out over five years and the disparity between throwing out runners between the two is far to great to just chalk it up to that.

George_Calfas said:

Please explain how. I agree that pitcher delivery and mechanics affect a catchers ability to throw out a runner, but pitchers rotate throughout the year however the Cather is dealing with the same core group of Pitchers all year.

My point in the comparison is that Batters do not face the same pitcher the same amount of games or ABs. BA is affected by the pitchers that the batter faces throughout the year, if you see bad pitching, ie the NL West, a batters BA has the potential to be higher. StL, Pitt and Cincy have three of the four best ERAs in the NL which suggests that batters facing these teams will produce less. Players face division pitchers more than non-division pitchers. Thus the argument is similar due to scheduling rather than individual mechanics.

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I tend to agree with elmalo.

There is one major variable in batting - the pitcher.
There are two major variables in throwing a runner out - the pitcher and the runner.

George_Calfas said:

Please explain how.

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Caveat- Theoretically:

6-7 pitchers account for ~65% of a catcher's innings. Ballparking that one, guessing 6 IP/start and 7 SPs used by a team over the course of a season.

Assuming 550 AB and 4 AB /game and a pitcher facing a division opponent 6 times in a season, it'll take about 15 SPs to reach that 65% (really, it would be more than 15 pitchers since not all AB in those games are against the starter, and I'm not so sure 6 games facing a chosen starting pitcher is all that common); that gives more room for large numbers to take hold and allow for 'league average' to play out regarding the strength of pitchers faced.

Also, organizational tendencies are sure to come into play. Does StL teach its pitchers better than other teams how to hold runners on, use the slide-step, throw fastballs at the 'right' time? That might be an interesting question to learn more about.

None of that suggests that Molina isn't an incredibly talented catcher. He also seems to pick off a relatively large number of baserunners at 1B.

Also interesting to note: I've heard stories of Pudge Rodriguez notoriously calling for fastballs at a higher than normal rate with runners on base, supposedly in an attempt to increase his CS%. True or not, I don't know. But it kind of highlights the possibility that a given stat doesn't always mean what we wish it meant.

So now Yadi's a scumbag? Apparently I was the only one to notice your little comment.
Whatever dude. If that makes you feel better.

muskiesfan said:

I would also like to mention that Ted Simmons is somehow not in the HOF, this scumbag has a lot longer to go before him and the HOF should be seriously mentioned in the same sentence.

Simmons was good offensively and defensively as well. He was overshadowed by Johnny Bench. You know Simmons had to be good if I talk positively about him, he played for that suck ass team in St. Louis.

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Super Mario said:

Hall of Fame bound!

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Plaque's already cast...waitin' for him to retire.

markakis8 said:

It's not like Cardinals had a team full of pitchers quick to the plate and the Giants had a team full of pitchers that were slow to the plate for FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS.

The playing field in terms of pitchers who are slow/quick to the plate I'm sure has leveled out over five years and the disparity between throwing out runners between the two is far to great to just chalk it up to that.

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Giants have been very slow to the plate for a while. Cain, Timmy, Bumgarner, Zito are all guys who are really slow to the plate.