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You can't fight city hall- eBay protecting large sellers and shillers (probstein content)

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MansGame

Active member
Sep 25, 2009
15,324
20
Dallas, TX
So many threads recently about shilling, etc. I honestly don't see why anyone thinks eBay gives a sh!t about people shilling... bigger selling price = happy sellers = more fees in their pocket

Not saying I'm for it or agree with it but I'm getting to the point where I just think eBay doesn't give a crap.
 

Keyser Soze

New member
Nov 9, 2010
3,262
0
The Woodlands, TX
I won all 7, two for a very low price and the other 5 for about market average. I paid not thinking too much about it. Fair play-service and shipping was quick and Probstein had delivered my cards in a few short days. It needed a signature and was returned to my main HUB and it took a sweek for me to retrieve the package. Cards were packed well and were in good shape.


These are YOUR words. YOU are the one that claimed you got 5 of them for fair market average and 2 of them at a very low price.
 

homerun28aa

Active member
Jun 8, 2011
19,072
8
So many threads recently about shilling, etc. I honestly don't see why anyone thinks eBay gives a sh!t about people shilling... bigger selling price = happy sellers = more fees in their pocket

Not saying I'm for it or agree with it but I'm getting to the point where I just think eBay doesn't give a crap.

Less buyers = smaller sales = smaller commissions.

There is a fine line; eBay has made it explicitly clear that this is against their TOS. Once you put something as against your TOS you have a duty to police it, therefore they should care.
 

MansGame

Active member
Sep 25, 2009
15,324
20
Dallas, TX
Also, for what it is worth, don't you think if someone wanted to shill they would be a little smarter about it? I mean I don't shill obviously being that I rarely sell anything and are a buyer 99% of the time but honestly I don't think it would be that hard for me to sell an item on eBay and just contact one of my FB friends to throw in a few bids or gixen or whatever. I don't see how someone could be so stupid as to bid 100% only on a few items from the same seller, all in the same fashion. Leads me to believe maybe it was someone just like the OP who liked each of those cards and wanted to take a stab at them, idk.

I'm done ranting... carry on.
 

MansGame

Active member
Sep 25, 2009
15,324
20
Dallas, TX
Less buyers = smaller sales = smaller commissions.

There is a fine line; eBay has made it explicitly clear that this is against their TOS. Once you put something as against your TOS you have a duty to police it, therefore they should care.
OF COURSE they would make it "explicitly clear" in their TOS. They are a public company and they have to do that. That doesn't mean deep down inside they really don't care and that they have bigger fish to fry than some guy buying baseball cards and is concerned about $62 he was shilled.

Again, not sticking up for the shiller here but just feel like eBay really doesn't care about stuff like this.
 

Keyser Soze

New member
Nov 9, 2010
3,262
0
The Woodlands, TX
You people who try to defend shilling as long as the card went for "market value", or trying to justify it by saying that the bidder bid his highest amount that he is willing to pay just make me laugh as there is NO justification for shilling in either of these circumstances. The thing is ANY form of shilling on eBay is against their policy and SHOULD NOT be tolerated, no matter whether the winning bidder was "comfortable" paying the price of his/her maximum bid or not. Here is the current eBay policy on shill bidding and the actions that can be taken against the members who condone shill bidding on their auctions. The point it appears the OP is trying to make is that even when presented with evidence of shilling, eBay failed to protect him based on their own policy's and refused to take action against the seller. In fact, helped him, by removing feedback left by the buyer who was unhappy with being shilled, despite whether or not he was "comfortable" or not paying the prices he won the auctions at. Again, ANY form of shilling is against eBay policy and should not be tolerated in any form. eBay's failure to enforce their own policy is the main concern and the main reason shilling is allowed to continue.

Our shill bidding policy is very simple:
Shill bidding is bidding by anyone—including family, friends, roommates, employees, or onlineconnections—that artificially increases an item's price or apparent desirability. In addition, members can't bid on or buy items with the intent to artificially increase a seller's Feedback or to improve the item's search standing. Shill bidding is not allowed on eBay.
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

  • Listing cancellation
  • Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
  • Limits on account privileges
  • Loss of PowerSeller status
  • Account suspension
  • Referral to Law Enforcement


I'm not defending it, there is just ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that can be done about it, so stop *****ing about it. The sooner you accept it and move on with your life, the happier you'll be.

You said it yourself, it's eBay's rule, but they won't do anything about it because it's more money in their pockets. So just move on.... dedicate your time and anger towards something where you can actually facilitate change
 
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MansGame

Active member
Sep 25, 2009
15,324
20
Dallas, TX
Not to mention, they're the #1 auction site on the planet. Again, I don't think they're concerned about a bunch of guys buying baseball cards on their site and getting pissed that they think they're getting shilled and leave eBay forever haha... I mean lets get serious. They have all the buyers attention... they need the sellers to have items up for sale... someone will buy them... with no sellers, there is nothing for the buyers to buy.
 

MansGame

Active member
Sep 25, 2009
15,324
20
Dallas, TX
For the record, I've been shilled a lot on Belle cards and it pisses me off. I wish there was a good answer but I'm afraid right now there isn't. Reminds me kind of like the stock market and high frequency traders. Anyone read the book Flash Boys? Good book, pick it up and read it.
 

Matsuicollector

New member
Aug 7, 2008
1,557
0
Oh, it's likely is it? How in gods name could you possibly say "it's likely"

Cards end at various prices everyday. But "it's likely" that these 7 cards, cards you don't even know what they are, were "likely " to have snipes and more bidders on them.

Give me a break.

No need to get snarky here. Though, "likely" may not have been the best choice of words. My point was that the POSSIBILITY still exists and who knows what would have happened without the shiller. My main point was, that for cards that sell around market value, how can you make the seller responsible for a perceived difference in final sale prices. Again, likely or not, the possibility exists that there were other bids that may have gone through. And for HOF patches, I'd guess more likely than not there were bidders/snipes lurking. When something is shilled ABOVE market value, you have a clearer delineation as to what impact the shiller had on the final value of the item. For cards that sell around market value, it's not as clear in my opinion.

But going back to "likely." What's more likely? That you would have ended up with a great deal (I consider $60 below market value a great deal) or that other legitimate bidders would have bid up the items closer to average selling prices?
 

homerun28aa

Active member
Jun 8, 2011
19,072
8
[MENTION=3754]MansGame[/MENTION]
A company that dishonestly prints their TOS opens themselves up to lawsuit, I'm not sure that anyone forced their hand to put that in their TOS.
Again, it doesn't necessarily make sense from a business end. Like I said, I don't bid on probstein auctions because I assume I'm going to get shilled; I still use eBay but a bunch of probstein's auctions would have gone for more money if he did not have this reputation therefore costing eBay some commission money. The more word about this gets out, the more people will not bid on his auctions. You can't prove that this is 1,000% shilling without tracking IP addresses, but he's been accused of it dozens of times all over message boards look it up.
 

Luck15Hope

New member
Jan 11, 2012
140
0
These are YOUR words. YOU are the one that claimed you got 5 of them for fair market average and 2 of them at a very low price.
The "true market value" has been manipulated by the shill bid to reach the previous "market value". You see this all the time for cards that sell at the time of products release. The first card of a print run listed usually receives a premium therefore setting the "market value" in somes minds. Another is listed, and lets say for the sake of my argument(as Ive seen it numerous times, just making up numbers here that are similar) that the next auction of that card sells for $50 less than the first which received a premium. Therefore CHANGING the "market value" of the card. Hence, the situation we have with the OP. The may have won the cards for the price of the current "market value", but the "true market value" would have been $60 less had the shill bid not of been place. Therefore, the shill bid manipulated the "true market value" in order to reach the sellers current "market value".
 

homerun28aa

Active member
Jun 8, 2011
19,072
8
I'm not defending it, there is just ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that can be done about it, so stop *****ing about it. The sooner you accept it and move on with your life, the happier you'll be.

You said it yourself, it's eBay's rule, but they won't do anything about it because it's more money in their pockets. So just move on.... dedicate your time and anger towards something where you can actually facilitate change

How about at the bare minimum at least let the guy leave the appropriate feedback?
 

Lancemountain

Active member
Apr 11, 2009
8,313
5
Philadelphia
I guess I'm not haha

Hahahh post away!

To answer your first post more directly, there are shill accounts with many a seller that are stupid enough to do just what is described. Bigboyds comes to mind lol.

This bidder bid on nothing before and has not made a bid since 12/10 and there have been many more of these cards listed since......
 

Matsuicollector

New member
Aug 7, 2008
1,557
0
You people who try to defend shilling as long as the card went for "market value", or trying to justify it by saying that the bidder bid his highest amount that he is willing to pay just make me laugh as there is NO justification for shilling in either of these circumstances. The thing is ANY form of shilling on eBay is against their policy and SHOULD NOT be tolerated, no matter whether the winning bidder was "comfortable" paying the price of his/her maximum bid or not. Here is the current eBay policy on shill bidding and the actions that can be taken against the members who condone shill bidding on their auctions. The point it appears the OP is trying to make is that even when presented with evidence of shilling, eBay failed to protect him based on their own policy's and refused to take action against the seller. In fact, helped him, by removing feedback left by the buyer who was unhappy with being shilled, despite whether or not he was "comfortable" or not paying the prices he won the auctions at. Again, ANY form of shilling is against eBay policy and should not be tolerated in any form. eBay's failure to enforce their own policy is the main concern and the main reason shilling is allowed to continue.

Our shill bidding policy is very simple:
Shill bidding is bidding by anyone—including family, friends, roommates, employees, or onlineconnections—that artificially increases an item's price or apparent desirability. In addition, members can't bid on or buy items with the intent to artificially increase a seller's Feedback or to improve the item's search standing. Shill bidding is not allowed on eBay.
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

  • Listing cancellation
  • Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
  • Limits on account privileges
  • Loss of PowerSeller status
  • Account suspension
  • Referral to Law Enforcement

Who's defending shilling? I have no idea how you get that from my post. I absolutely despise shilling and think that something should be done about it if there is a reasonable way to do it. And the only reasonable way to do it would be if EBAY gets involved, which they likely won't.

My point was that it's more difficult to determine what impact a shiller truly has on a card that goes for "market value." Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Luck15Hope

New member
Jan 11, 2012
140
0
I'm not defending it, there is just ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that can be done about it, so stop *****ing about it. The sooner you accept it and move on with your life, the happier you'll be.

You said it yourself, it's eBay's rule, but they won't do anything about it because it's more money in their pockets. So just move on.... dedicate your time and anger towards something where you can actually facilitate change

The fact that you bring up terms such as "happier you'll be" and "my anger" just further prove your ignorance on the matter. The FACT still remains that ANY form of shill bidding is against eBay policy and should not be tolerated. You can justify it in your mind anyway you wish by saying that eBay will do nothing about so everyone should just move on. You are wrong here. eBays action to not take action against those who violate their own policy is a cause for CONCERN, not anger and unhappiness. If enough people speak up about it and complain to eBay, it WILL change. Its people like you who spread the ideas of just ignoring it and "moving on" that contribute to these types of situations that allow them to continue.
 

Keyser Soze

New member
Nov 9, 2010
3,262
0
The Woodlands, TX
The fact that you bring up terms such as "happier you'll be" and "my anger" just further prove your ignorance on the matter. The FACT still remains that ANY form of shill bidding is against eBay policy and should not be tolerated. You can justify it in your mind anyway you wish by saying that eBay will do nothing about so everyone should just move on. You are wrong here. eBays action to not take action against those who violate their own policy is a cause for CONCERN, not anger and unhappiness. If enough people speak up about it and complain to eBay, it WILL change. Its people like you who spread the ideas of just ignoring it and "moving on" that contribute to these types of situations that allow them to continue.

Ok guy. You keep beating your head against that wall and see where it gets you. Good luck to you.
 

Luck15Hope

New member
Jan 11, 2012
140
0
Who's defending shilling? I have no idea how you get that from my post. I absolutely despise shilling and think that something should be done about it if there is a reasonable way to do it. And the only reasonable way to do it would be if EBAY gets involved, which they likely won't.

My point was that it's more difficult to determine what impact a shiller truly has on a card that goes for "market value." Nothing more, nothing less.
I get that from your post here, "This is the part where complaining about shilling runs into a problem in my opinion. It seems like you won all cards for at or below market price based on your statement and were happy with the prices."
You clearly say that you have a problem with people complaining about shilling if they win the cards for current market value and were happy and ok with those prices. To what extent the "impact" of the shill bid had on the market value of a card is completely irrelevant. The FACT of that matter is that there was a shill bid that is against eBay policy and should not be tolerated in any form. No matter the "impact" it had on the auction.
If you werent defending shilling, my apologies to you, but you sure made it clear that you felt otherwise.
 
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