Great read on the bowman chrome Bryant situation

Yet Leaf/Razor got 20 pages of nonsense when they released a Chrome version of their paper set. This is FAR, FAR worse and is a slap in the face to anyone who purchased any 2014 Bowman product, or more specifically, anyone who bought any Bowman Khris Bryant autos.

Thanks for posting this, as I have only pieced together what has happened with this card through message boards.

It makes sense that the author would frame this from the point of view of collector/investor, but he needs to expand more on the "Topps is not responsible for secondary values" point. He seems to understand the upside for Topps in doing this, which is that they may have figured out a way to even out their case sales. If the first Bowman product of the year pre-sells at a lower level because of this, it should even out over increased sales for the rest of the year. The problem for Topps is that, having set this precedent, they almost have to follow through with the same practice next year, or the result could be lower case sales throughout the year. Only time will tell.

I wish that Topps was more forward thinking, and perhaps they have become so since I left over ten years ago. I just fear that this decision was made with the foresight of the next few releases, not the next few years. Of course, at its heart, Topps is just putting out a baseball product. I think most employees there don't ruminate over this stuff nearly as much as us message board geeks do.

Whew, people who paid high prices early are really getting burned. That's one of the reasons I stick to players who are retired and have nice career stats in the books that you can bank on if you are spending any kinda real money on their cards. Prospecting can be painful.

This all speaks to dilution of the prospect card releases and the fact that Topps conveniently ignores or acknowledges the secondary market when it suits them.

I have no dog in the race here, but one part of the story that seems to be missing from everyone pointing their finger at Topps, is when did Topps get these cards back from Kris Bryant?? Did they get the 2013 Chrome Draft AUTOs back in time for that release, or did Kris Bryant return them with an initial batch of 2014 Chrome. How does anyone know that Topps was not FORCED to make this move by when Kris Bryant returned his cards. Were there not redemptions for these also inserted in 2014 Bowman, which leads me to believe they in fact did not have the cards returned to them in a timely manner.

I also really dont see how any of this is a bad thing. People who buy the first few cards of any new product usually pay far more than the going rate in a few months. The Kris Bryant example is really no different, other than the collectors at the time did not know they were going to release more with later products. However, as a consumer, dealer, case breaker, etc. Topps is still adding additional value to the product.


In a perfect world a player's card would come out with that perspective product and that would be it, and the 1st bowman card would be the 1st bowman card, etc. Ever since the RC rule change, everything has become muddied up....guys get 1st bowman chrome cards in different products, Bryce Harper is a (RC) for 7 years, and now with Yu Darvish and Kris Bryant, we get guys 2013/14 cards getting released and re-released throughout the year. Topps isnt stupid, their job is to sell as much product as possible as quickly as possible. I think more and more of this kind of stuff will become the norm, until, someone fixes it back to the way it was. Regardless if Topps had the Kris Bryant Autos in time and held them back on purpose or not, since the RC Card rule change, Topps has tinkered with releases to elevate sales....they are not doing anything intentional to the secondary market or probably care, in Topps' eyes, they are adding value to their product and selling more of it. I think anyone trying to look further into it than that, is on a wild goose chase.


TK

Mighty Bombjack said:

Thanks for posting this, as I have only pieced together what has happened with this card through message boards.

It makes sense that the author would frame this from the point of view of collector/investor, but he needs to expand more on the "Topps is not responsible for secondary values" point. He seems to understand the upside for Topps in doing this, which is that they may have figured out a way to even out their case sales. If the first Bowman product of the year pre-sells at a lower level because of this, it should even out over increased sales for the rest of the year. The problem for Topps is that, having set this precedent, they almost have to follow through with the same practice next year, or the result could be lower case sales throughout the year. Only time will tell.

I wish that Topps was more forward thinking, and perhaps they have become so since I left over ten years ago. I just fear that this decision was made with the foresight of the next few releases, not the next few years. Of course, at its heart, Topps is just putting out a baseball product. I think most employees there don't ruminate over this stuff nearly as much as us message board geeks do.

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The one thing I'll give Topps is they do not hide the part I bolded. They could care less about the secondary market. The only care that their direct customers can move product.

For years, it's like topps goes with their first thought without thinking of the consequences.


1. "Hey, let's do bowman chrome wrapper redemptions, that'll give our customers a freebie"

When in reality, they neglect to understand that announcing it several days after release only pisses off the collectors who have trashed wrappers already.

2. "Ok this year we will announce the wrapper redemption ahead of time"

But the outcome still pisses off customers because they get shut out due to large breakers coupled with a limited amount of packs....Putting the waves in packs INSTEAD was always the way to go.

3. "Let's hide 1/1 cards inside the box LIDS and plan on NOT announcing it for at least five days, more extra bonuses for our customers"

W..T..F? Really? Why would you plan to wait SEVERAL DAYS at minimum to inform your customers (in actuality, brentbecca tweeted it before topps mentioned it)? Why take the chance of pissing off your customers who trashed their boxes days prior?

4. "Let's surprise our customers by secretly producing Kris Bryant 2013 cards and including them in all 2014 bowman products....WIN WIN EXTRA BONUS for our customers"

Reality check: all this did was piss off your customers/ investors who spent hundreds/ thousands on not only the '14 Bryants (1st bowman chrome logo'd), but the first wave of '13 bryant cards which all since plummeted despite him winning POY.

BBCgalaxee said:

For years, it's like topps goes with their first thought without thinking of the consequences.


1. "Hey, let's do bowman chrome wrapper redemptions, that'll give our customers a freebie"

When in reality, they neglect to understand that announcing it several days after release only pisses off the collectors who have trashed wrappers already.

2. "Ok this year we will announce the wrapper redemption ahead of time"

But the outcome still pisses off customers because they get shut out due to large breakers coupled with a limited amount of packs....Putting the waves in packs INSTEAD was always the way to go.

3. "Let's hide 1/1 cards inside the box LIDS and plan on NOT announcing it for at least five days, more extra bonuses for our customers"

W..T..F? Really? Why would you plan to wait SEVERAL DAYS at minimum to inform your customers (in actuality, brentbecca tweeted it before topps mentioned it)? Why take the chance of pissing off your customers who trashed their boxes days prior?

4. "Let's surprise our customers by secretly producing Kris Bryant 2013 cards and including them in all 2014 bowman products....WIN WIN EXTRA BONUS for our customers"

Reality check: all this did was piss off your customers/ investors who spent hundreds/ thousands on not only the '14 Bryants (1st bowman chrome logo'd), but the first wave of '13 bryant cards which all since plummeted despite him winning POY.

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You are assuming that Topps actually cares about the values of their product on the secondary market, and that is not the mass purchaser of topps products. The few Investors of Kris Bryant AUTOs is not going to make or break Topps, the average collector, retail giants, distributors, and card shops is what makes or breaks topps, and I dont think the added value of more Kris Bryant AUTOs will be a complaint from any of them....

Hasn't Topps done this for years? How many Bryce Harper, Stephen Strasburg, Mike Trout, etc., autograph cards were made in 2009-2012? Going back to a previous year's design is one thing odd, though. If they are actually cards made last year and somehow not redemptionized, but instead specifcally created this year, it's a little henky, but not too different from buybacks or retro styled cards.

But certainly, anyone who paid $1000+ for a rookie card, even if it's graded a BGS 12, is taking a risk, and saturation of the market with that guy is one of them.

Actually the more I think about it, how is this that much different than buybacks or Topps Archives, Fan Favorites...take a player, put it on an old design, stamp it or autograph it different and package it up and market it to the consumer as a new product or added value.....

The only reason this is even a story is because it was a HOT RC/Prospect that won the POY and a few people got burned paying absorbent amounts of money right out of the gate.

I agree with other posters, there is always a risk with prospecting, always has been, either it be with injury, performance issues, trouble with the law, or saturation of market no matter how it is done. IF there was no risk, then everybody in the world would be rich off of buying and selling baseball cards.


TK

But in reality, it goes beyond Bryant.

I assume one of (maybe THE) hottest player from the '14 draft is Kyle Schwarber.

Since the #1 pick didn't sign, one would think that Schwarber WON'T be in 2014 draft and instead make his first chrome appearance in '15 bowman.

As an investor or even just a true rookie card collector (player's first card), there will now be doubt planted in your head that topps will do to Schwarber what they did with Bryant's cards.

That is not good.

If history repeats itself, Topps will save the top two picks (Kolek/Rodon) for next year's Bowman, not Schwarber.

Jaypers said:

If history repeats itself, Topps will save the top two picks (Kolek/Rodon) for next year's Bowman, not Schwarber.

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Dear lord I hope so. Draft is always a much better value than regular Bowman. Throw the pitchers in next year's product.

Either Topps does not understand the value of its own cards, or the company is assuming that collectors are stupid. Because what’s happened is that Topps is creating risk in the marketplace, which (unless collectors are, in fact, stupid) will ultimately impact the initial value of every Bowman Chrome RC auto issued in its spring Bowman releases until the day that Topps promises to quit the practice.

Sounds about right. When I used to write for Consumer's Digest, I wrote a story about the current state of card collecting. When I interviewed Clay Luraschi from Topps he pretty much told me flat out that Topps didn't care about secondary value and it was in their best interest to not concern themselves with it.

Which is completely understandable. They don't care about what happens as soon as the product leaves their warehouse, they aren't selling the individual cards on eBay after the fact. They are worried about their bottom line when it comes to selling unopened product and loading Bryant autos is a brilliant idea to sell more cases across the board, throughout 2014. And honestly... even as a Cubs fan and prospector, I can't understand in the least bit how people can pay that much for a chrome auto and expect it to retain or increase in value over time. It sucks if you did buy and had to watch the value plummet, but that's a risk you have to take in this hobby/investment.

shayscards79 said:

Either Topps does not understand the value of its own cards, or the company is assuming that collectors are stupid. Because what’s happened is that Topps is creating risk in the marketplace, which (unless collectors are, in fact, stupid) will ultimately impact the initial value of every Bowman Chrome RC auto issued in its spring Bowman releases until the day that Topps promises to quit the practice.

Sounds about right. When I used to write for Consumer's Digest, I wrote a story about the current state of card collecting. When I interviewed Clay Luraschi from Topps he pretty much told me flat out that Topps didn't care about secondary value and it was in their best interest to not concern themselves with it.

Which is completely understandable. They don't care about what happens as soon as the product leaves their warehouse, they aren't selling the individual cards on eBay after the fact. They are worried about their bottom line when it comes to selling unopened product and loading Bryant autos is a brilliant idea to sell more cases across the board, throughout 2014. And honestly... even as a Cubs fan and prospector, I can't understand in the least bit how people can pay that much for a chrome auto and expect it to retain or increase in value over time. It sucks if you did buy and had to watch the value plummet, but that's a risk you have to take in this hobby/investment.

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I've heard Clay 3 or 4 times now say this exact same thing. They create a product their dealers can move. Once its out the door, they count their money and hope for the best. Dealers need adds that make people but the cards and what that does to the value of previous cards, doesnt matter to either of them...

shayscards79 said:

Either Topps does not understand the value of its own cards, or the company is assuming that collectors are stupid. Because what’s happened is that Topps is creating risk in the marketplace, which (unless collectors are, in fact, stupid) will ultimately impact the initial value of every Bowman Chrome RC auto issued in its spring Bowman releases until the day that Topps promises to quit the practice.

Sounds about right. When I used to write for Consumer's Digest, I wrote a story about the current state of card collecting. When I interviewed Clay Luraschi from Topps he pretty much told me flat out that Topps didn't care about secondary value and it was in their best interest to not concern themselves with it.

Which is completely understandable. They don't care about what happens as soon as the product leaves their warehouse, they aren't selling the individual cards on eBay after the fact. They are worried about their bottom line when it comes to selling unopened product and loading Bryant autos is a brilliant idea to sell more cases across the board, throughout 2014. And honestly... even as a Cubs fan and prospector, I can't understand in the least bit how people can pay that much for a chrome auto and expect it to retain or increase in value over time. It sucks if you did buy and had to watch the value plummet, but that's a risk you have to take in this hobby/investment.

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Because prospectors are always looking for the next Albert Pujols or Mike Trout. The perception was that Kris Bryant was an SP. That was never confirmed by Topps, it was a perception by prospectors. However, the people paying near $1K or a little less I highly doubt were prospectors at that point. They were the same people spending insane amounts on the Alex Gordon Cutout Card and the Derek Jeter/George Bush Card, and the etc. etc. etc.....


The narrow market of prospecting does not really matter one way or the other to Topps producing and moving product. Most prospectors are secondary market buyers anyways and not busting cases upon cases to obtain the few "picks" they are trying to horde. I am glad Topps does not concern themselves with the secondary market, that will only cause even more problems. As a manufacturer, Topps will have happy customers and not happy customers with every idea or concept that they have, even by putting in what Topps perceived as an "Extra" value to help sell more product.

TK

I think some of you who say Topps has never cared about secondary value of its prospect products either didn't collect in the '90s, or forgot about Topps' "value guarantee" on their Bowman sets.

Beginning in 1996, and lasting a few years, Topps guaranteed their Bowman sets would hold a secondary value of at least $125, or Topps would buy them back.
The guarantee had an expiration date of three years.

If the value (I think determined by Beckett) dropped below $125, collectors could send the complete set and a certificate found in packs to Topps, and they'd receive a $125 check in the mail.

Of course, Beckett over-values everything, so I don't know if anyone ever cashed in on the guarantee.

Austin said:

I think some of you who say Topps has never cared about secondary value of its prospect products either didn't collect in the '90s, or forgot about Topps' "value guarantee" on their Bowman sets.

Beginning in 1996, and lasting a few years, Topps guaranteed their Bowman sets would hold a secondary value of at least $125, or Topps would buy them back.
The guarantee had an expiration date of three years.

Of course, Beckett over-values everything, so I don't know if anyone ever cashed in on the guarantee.

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If Topps used to worry about the secondary market, they will tell you now they do not. Nothing they do is for the collector, they are focused on products their dealers can move...

Austin said:

I think some of you who say Topps has never cared about secondary value of its prospect products either didn't collect in the '90s, or forgot about Topps' "value guarantee" on their Bowman sets.

Beginning in 1996, and lasting a few years, Topps guaranteed their Bowman sets would hold a secondary value of at least $125, or Topps would buy them back.
The guarantee had an expiration date of three years.

If the value (I think determined by Beckett) dropped below $125, collectors could send the complete set and a certificate found in packs to Topps, and they'd receive a $125 check in the mail.

Of course, Beckett over-values everything, so I don't know if anyone ever cashed in on the guarantee.

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I dont remember the particular wording on the back and I dont remember if it was only "Factory Sets" or hand collated sets. I do however remember it was only valid for a 4 month window in 1999 and very few people actually took Topps up on the offer.

I also dont remember how the "VALUE" was determined. It was certainly not off ebay completed auctions. I would have to assume they would have just looked at a Tuff Stuff or Beckett. I still dont know if Topps "really" cared about the secondary market with this gimmick, as the opportunity to get the guaranteed value back was so small and at the time, Bowman and Bowman Chrome were extremely hot products.

The entire card industry has changed 100X over since those days---though I think many of us wish it would go back to the 1997-1999 times.


TK