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Baines, Lee Smith Headed to the Baseball Hall of Fame

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banjar

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2015
2,531
869
Lafayette, Colorado
God damnit, this really pisses me off the more I think about it. Harold Baines in the HOF? What the hell is this, the participation award? Everyone gets a gold star now? Grrrrrr.
 

u2me57

Well-known member
Mar 21, 2014
3,234
63
Hendersonville, Tn.
I am totally with you. Harold Baines is in the HOF? Lee Smith? Good guys, I really liked them. Especially Smith. But Hall of Fame? No, no, and no again.

Harold Baines never finished above 9th in MVP voting. For his entire career, he has 0.31 MVP voting shares, putting him 640th in MLB history. An obscure stat for sure, but it tells you about how dominant he was - or more accurately, wasn't. Only once - and barely once - in his entire career was he voted among the top 10 most valuable players in his league.

I don't think Lee Smith is a HOF'er, but at least finished 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 9th in Cy Young voting. That's some serious consideration in multiple years. Hell, he even got some MVP votes now and then. In fact, this *relief pitcher* finished his career with more MVP voting shares than Baines. Also, his career WAR is 29.0. Not bad for a relief pitcher. I mean, if somebody REALLY put the screws to me and made the Lee Smith case for HOF, I might eventually agree. Even if it's just to shut them up.

But Baines? No, no, and no again. We need a line in the sand people. His career WAR is 38.7, which is only 9.7 above Smith - who, again, was a *relief pitcher*. I know WAR wasn't invented when he played, but it tells you a lot. He had exactly one season above 4 WAR, and only one more season above 3 WAR. Every single one of his other TWENTY seasons was below 3. Baines played 22 years and accumulated some nice numbers, but he was never, ever, ever great. Not even for one freaking season.

Here is the HOF summary for Baines from Baseball Reference. Not the ultimate answer, but one of the best ways to compare HOF'ers versus their peers.

Hall of Fame Statistics:

Black Ink
Batting - 3 (560), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (655), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 66 (311), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 44 (121), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Right Field (74th):
38.7 career WAR / 21.4 7yr-peak WAR / 30.1 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 26):
71.4 career WAR / 42.1 7yr-peak WAR / 56.8 JAWS

I agree 100% on everything you said!
 

goobmcnasty

Active member
Apr 4, 2014
1,583
13
It's gotta feel weird for Baines. He didn't lobby for this, and was just as surprised as everyone else. Now when he googles his name, he has total strangers ****ting on him because of the "system." Poor guy has to forever read how he doesn't deserve to be associated with greatness.
 

Brewer Andy

Active member
Aug 10, 2008
9,634
21
It's gotta feel weird for Baines. He didn't lobby for this, and was just as surprised as everyone else. Now when he googles his name, he has total strangers ****ting on him because of the "system." Poor guy has to forever read how he doesn't deserve to be associated with greatness.

Agree with this as well. Baines was a terrific hitter, a franchise player and had a helluva career anyone would be proud of but almost find myself feeling bad for him in this situation. Which makes me more of a Baines fan than I was before. Was happy when the A’d obtained him as a kid, beautiful leg kick!


Sent from my iPhone using Freedom Card Board mobile app
 

Therion

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2008
5,779
387
Looooooosiana!
I have two working theories.

1) This is the greatest troll job of all time. They elected Baines just so we would all talk about the Hall of Fame. Any publicity is good publicity, right?

2) This is a lashing out against SABRmetrics. All of the arguments against Baines are from new wave stats. But the good ole "eye test" beats out "nerds and their computers", right? Right?
 

WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,733
1,498
Oklahoma
I have two working theories.

1) This is the greatest troll job of all time. They elected Baines just so we would all talk about the Hall of Fame. Any publicity is good publicity, right?

2) This is a lashing out against SABRmetrics. All of the arguments against Baines are from new wave stats. But the good ole "eye test" beats out "nerds and their computers", right? Right?

1) It's a modern day Rick Ferrell situation. He was lobbied for by one of the guys on the committee (Reinsdorf) to not get shut out/give him a chance/whatever and you ended up with 12 votes all because too many people refused to be the "bad guy".
 

RNCoyote

Well-known member
Nov 4, 2009
1,144
180
Texas
I get the feeling its a board conspiracy to say Baines is the first DH in as Hall of Fame than Edgar Martinez who on his last try
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
6,169
4,057
Maybe, but you don't get in with just 4 votes, so the work they may have done with the other voters must have done the trick.

I am not arguing that he is well deserving, but even if he was a stat compiler, you still have very few players who can physically play at that level for that long to accumulate those stats. That is what most people gloss over so easily. Average MLB career? I'd guess 5 years or less probably, so why can't a guy who had 15-20 years and performed well in most of those years be considered one of the best that ever played? They don't have to be Aaron, Ruth or Mays level either, but better than 98% who played as well. I say yes. I am not talking Baines here either, but a handful of guys who had very nice careers and have remained on the snub list.

What a joke. Even Baines himself said he was in total shock.
He was good but never great. No one considered Baines a Hall of Famer during his playing days.

He was the ultimate stat compiler. He had 2,800+ hits, but only once did he have more than 173 hits in a season. He had almost 400 homers, but only once hit more than 25 homers.
He received MVP votes in only four of his 22 seasons, and was never higher than 9th place.

Worst of all, Baines never received more than 6% of the HOF vote. Now he’s magically worthy, after 94% of voters said he wasn’t?

So why was he elected this time? ESPN’s analysts say the main reason is because of the nonstop lobbying of White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf, who just happens to be one of the 16 voters, who also include Baines’ former teammate Roberto Alomar, his former GM Pat Gillick and former manager Tony LaRussa.

Lots of nepotism in these new committees, and it favored Baines this time.
 

goobmcnasty

Active member
Apr 4, 2014
1,583
13
In other news, eleven states -- including North Dakota and Delaware -- got together and decided the presidential election wasn't done properly, so the new President of the United States is now Ross Perot (8.4% of the vote when he was last eligible)
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
6,169
4,057
Seriously, what difference does it make to everyone that a "lesser" player got elected? I kind of enjoy seeing the complaints each year a non-deserver gets elected and wonder why it really matters.

Will your trip to Cooperstown be ruined if you see a Baines display (I got news for ya, many displays in the HOF don't include HOFers)? Is our HOF now a joke compared to the French HOF? is your collecting experience any less fulfilling now? Will having one more cheaper HOF autograph make it harder to sell your stuff? Does it make Hank Aaron any less of a HOFer to have to say that he and Baines are now in a class together?

Get over yourselves...
 

Brewer Andy

Active member
Aug 10, 2008
9,634
21
Usually when these HOF arguments fire up someone starts spouting off the “it’s not the Hall of Very Good” take and I usually point out that it’s also not the “Hall of Only the Best” but the Hall of “Fame” and am generally in favor of more inclusion. Could care less about exclusivity really. It’s a history museum for God’s sake, calm down. In this case however, I don’t think you can argue that Baines was famous outside of south Chicago either. So in my eyes your darn right Mattingly should be in, but this is a head scratcher.

I also agree with the point above. We’re yelling about the Hall of Fame in December and that’s not terrible. Viva la Baseball!


Sent from my iPhone using Freedom Card Board mobile app
 

Mighty Bombjack

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
6,115
12
I have had a Lee Smith autograph in my "future HOF" collection for like 15 years now, was starting to think he had no shot.

Never even considered buying a Baines before.
 

Mighty Bombjack

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
6,115
12
I have had a Lee Smith autograph in my "future HOF" collection for like 15 years now, was starting to think he had no shot.

Never even considered buying a Baines before.
 

banjar

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2015
2,531
869
Lafayette, Colorado
It's not really a matter of getting over oneself, or a matter of the HOF making a difference in anyone's baseball fandom, collecting hobby, or life. It doesn't. So yes, clearly this doesn't really matter in the big picture, but that's not the point at all. One has the right to state strong opinions about things, even things that aren't that important. And also, of course, the right also to issue pious chastisements about said opinions.



Seriously, what difference does it make to everyone that a "lesser" player got elected? I kind of enjoy seeing the complaints each year a non-deserver gets elected and wonder why it really matters.

Will your trip to Cooperstown be ruined if you see a Baines display (I got news for ya, many displays in the HOF don't include HOFers)? Is our HOF now a joke compared to the French HOF? is your collecting experience any less fulfilling now? Will having one more cheaper HOF autograph make it harder to sell your stuff? Does it make Hank Aaron any less of a HOFer to have to say that he and Baines are now in a class together?

Get over yourselves...
 

Letch77

Well-known member
Jan 28, 2018
1,608
353
Midwest
It's not really a matter of getting over oneself, or a matter of the HOF making a difference in anyone's baseball fandom, collecting hobby, or life. It doesn't. So yes, clearly this doesn't really matter in the big picture, but that's not the point at all. One has the right to state strong opinions about things, even things that aren't that important. And also, of course, the right also to issue pious chastisements about said opinions.

Personally, I think it cheapens the significance of being in the HOF.
 

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