This is why Schilling, Mussina, Halladay, etc. will make the HOF some day

predatorkj · Jan 4, 2014

MansGame said:
Couldn't agree more. Nice career and good guy but not a Hall of Famer.

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Yet you think Belle belongs? Ha! I think Bagwell was way better than Belle and I don't even know that he'll make it.

I don't say that to attack you or your player. I liked Belle and I think you're good people. I just think the way you gauge a guy on HOF worthiness is a little off.

I was under the impression that you needed to be one of the best at your position (offense and defense, although an over abundance of offense can rip the scales if the guy wasn't a defensive beast) during and compared to the rest of the league when you played.

We know there are some stupid things HOF voters look at like all star games, WS rings and whatnot but in the end, I think the reason you're having a hard time believing any of these guys belong is because we all grew up hearing about all these larger than life immortals and it's hard to imagine any current player stacking up. But they do in a lot of cases and even if they aren't Aaron, Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Williams, or any other all time great, it's still about how good they are compared to their own era. Not in the 40's, 50's, or 60's era players. We will probably never even see another 300 game winner. We may not even see another legit 500 hr guy. Who knows. But the game has changed. It's time to vote with that in mind.

MansGame · Jan 5, 2014

predatorkj said:
Yet you think Belle belongs? Ha! I think Bagwell was way better than Belle and I don't even know that he'll make it.

I don't say that to attack you or your player. I liked Belle and I think you're good people. I just think the way you gauge a guy on HOF worthiness is a little off.

I was under the impression that you needed to be one of the best at your position (offense and defense, although an over abundance of offense can rip the scales if the guy wasn't a defensive beast) during and compared to the rest of the league when you played.

We know there are some stupid things HOF voters look at like all star games, WS rings and whatnot but in the end, I think the reason you're having a hard time believing any of these guys belong is because we all grew up hearing about all these larger than life immortals and it's hard to imagine any current player stacking up. But they do in a lot of cases and even if they aren't Aaron, Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Williams, or any other all time great, it's still about how good they are compared to their own era. Not in the 40's, 50's, or 60's era players. We will probably never even see another 300 game winner. We may not even see another legit 500 hr guy. Who knows. But the game has changed. It's time to vote with that in mind.

Actually, what the hell, I'll respond...

I think if you have to argue and make a case for a guy to justify him being considered for the Hall, then he shouldn't be in.

Kent's numbers alone don't get him in. Period. Or his accomplishments. You have to compare him to other at his position to make a case for it. That's not what I think of when I think of a HOF'er. If he didn't have that MVP, then it's be a million times worse.

As for Belle and the HOF... Not going to go there. I've spoken my piece and my thoughts about him in the past. I had an entire thread about it, so just go pull that up and chime away.

As for Belle versus Bagwell... Belle was one of the most feared hitter in the '90s but that's cool if you think Bags was better.

sportscardtheory · Jan 5, 2014

BiggioBrooks755 said:
Its the Hall Of Fame not the Hall Of Very Good

How original.

sportscardtheory · Jan 5, 2014

MansGame said:
Actually, what the hell, I'll respond...

I think if you have to argue and make a case for a guy to justify him being considered for the Hall, then he shouldn't be in.

Kent's numbers alone don't get him in. Period. Or his accomplishments. You have to compare him to other at his position to make a case for it. That's not what I think of when I think of a HOF'er. If he didn't have that MVP, then it's be a million times worse.

As for Belle and the HOF... Not going to go there. I've spoken my piece and my thoughts about him in the past. I had an entire thread about it, so just go pull that up and chime away.

As for Belle versus Bagwell... Belle was one of the most feared hitter in the '90s but that's cool if you think Bags was better.

What you keep saying is that Kent "won't sniff the front porch". That means he should be off the ballot after his first year of eligibility, correct? I would say making it past the first year is "sniffing the front porch". At least be honest. You KNOW he will be on the ballot for years, which completely unravels your sentiment.

aarne13 · Jan 5, 2014

Kent is HOF material. Not first ballot but definitely in the first couple years. I don't see a reason to keep him out given the numbers he put up.

MaineMule · Jan 5, 2014

I think Schilling gets in before Mussina as he outdistances him by far in the post season. Mussina's numbers and results in the post season are good, Schilling's are historic........I am not sold on Mussina as a HOFer but for all the others I am........

MansGame · Jan 5, 2014

sportscardtheory said:
What you keep saying is that Kent "won't sniff the front porch". That means he should be off the ballot after his first year of eligibility, correct? I would say making it past the first year is "sniffing the front porch". At least be honest. You KNOW he will be on the ballot for years, which completely unravels your sentiment.

Fine. He will sniff it. He might be on a while, I don't know. Don't think he has a chance getting in.

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MansGame · Jan 5, 2014

aarne13 said:
Kent is HOF material. Not first ballot but definitely in the first couple years. I don't see a reason to keep him out given the numbers he put up.

Any specifics over there? Or just paint with "the numbers he put up" broad-brush? Lol

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MansGame · Jan 5, 2014

I feel like this Kent creature has hijacked the thread. I'll start my own.

Just shocked I guess that we argue over and over again about guys with milestones and guys with generally a good case to get into the Hall...

Then we get to Jeff Kent who has none... Lead the league in nothing ever... But he is one of the best power hitting second basemen of all time.

Just find it funny how it's so easy to qualify someone out but in Kent's case, so easy to put him in. I think he was good but good god not HOF.

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MansGame · Jan 5, 2014

Move the Jeff Kent convo here gents: http://www.freedomcardboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132018

WaxPax · Jan 5, 2014

Not sure how you can say that with such certainty, compare Kent's career numbers to Sanberg's. In roughly the same number of At bats, Kent's beats Sandberg in every offensive category except stolen bases...Sandberg career OPS+ 114, Kent 123

MansGame said:
Couldn't agree more. Nice career and good guy but not a Hall of Famer.

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MansGame · Jan 5, 2014

WaxPax said:
Not sure how you can say that with such certainty, compare Kent's career numbers to Sanberg's. In roughly the same number of At bats, Kent's beats Sandberg in every offensive category except stolen bases...Sandberg career OPS+ 114, Kent 123

Read the post before you posted?

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WaxPax · Jan 5, 2014

MansGame said:
Read the post before you posted?

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Yes I did...didn't feel like jumping to another thread to respond...sorry if it got your ******* all twisted

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MansGame · Jan 5, 2014

WaxPax said:
Yes I did...didn't feel like jumping to another thread to respond...sorry if it got your ******* all twisted

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Freedom Card Board mobile app

No ******* twisted. Think your opinion is good and wanted to make sure you add it to the convo over there. Anyways, good post. I guess you'd have to now go research Sandberg and use that as justification for Kent. Part of the post I created, which is if you have to use other players and really make a case to get him in, I think that's a good case of "good" player but not Hall of Famer.

Again, feel free to jump into the convo over there or if it's too much work, continue here... just trying to not hijack this thread any more

markakis8 · Jan 6, 2014

BiggioBrooks755 said:
Through baseball history, stats and #s mean everything. 3000 hits, 500 homeruns, and 300 wins

Biggio has one of the 3

How many of those guys have 300 wins?

Times are changing. Might want to catch up. 500 HR does not mean the same as it did 10 years ago. This is why Adam Dunn will need 600 HR to make the HOF. 250 Wins is the new 300...one could argue 200 wins will get you serious consideration as long as other accomplishments on your resume (AS appearances, post season dominance, Cy Youngs, GG, etc) are Hall Worthy a la Pedro and Doc and Schilling.

markakis8 · Jan 6, 2014

MaineMule said:
I think Schilling gets in before Mussina as he outdistances him by far in the post season. Mussina's numbers and results in the post season are good, Schilling's are historic........I am not sold on Mussina as a HOFer but for all the others I am........

I think the article comparing Mussina vs Glavine is outstanding. Mussina was a better pitcher overall than Glavine. What does Glavine have over Mussina? Well the 2 Cy Youngs, 300 wins and a WS ring. But if you look closely, Mussina has overall better numbers except in the wins. Tom Glavine stuck around to get 300 (he would've been a HOF without that milestone)...Mussina retired after the year he won 20 games. He could've easily stuck around and compiled 30 more wins and 180 more K's for 3000; and if he DID stick around one more year, he would've won a ring with the Yankees.

He won't be first ballot, might have to wait a couple years, but Mussina will eventually get in.

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This is why Schilling, Mussina, Halladay, etc. will make the HOF some day

predatorkj

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