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Beckett suing COMC over database

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Brewer Andy

Active member
Aug 10, 2008
9,634
21
Not a clue.


I can't seem to make this point clear, but it is technically not about the content of the checklists that is the issue. One cannot copyright facts.

it is about the presentation of the checklists. To quote CaseBriefs.com about the Feist v. Rural Telephone Service Co decision:



So while multiple companies can produce phone books containing the exact same names and numbers, one company cannot simply photocopy the other company's work and sell it. It is not the data to which Beckett applies its copyright claims, but the way they have arranged and displayed them. If Beckett’s listing for a card says this:

2005 Upper Deck HOF Signs of Cooperstown Quads Autograph Gold #BSAY Banks/Ozzie/Apar/Yount


Anyone else producing a checklist of the same set needs to make some effort to differentiate their version of the facts like this:

2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame Signs of Cooperstown Quad Autographs Gold #BSAY Ernie Banks / Ozzie Smith / Luis Aparicio / Robin Yount

What makes it obvious that people are copying Beckett's checklists is that for many more complicated cards, the other sites are using the exact same arrangement and text of Beckett's (sloppy) listings. If other sites would make the simple effort of cleaning up the data before reproducing it, there is no case. Beckett's checklists tend to be messy because of space saving measures dating back to their print business, and the often leave off prefixes to card numbering and even introduce erroneous numbering for some sets that are unnumbered or where Beckett simply couldn't be bothered to find the correct numbering. Other sites really need to be pushing themselves to improve upon what Beckett has done, not simply regurgitate it verbatim.

Solid, and that clears it up a bit
 

BenG76

Active member
May 15, 2013
1,819
2
Fancy Gap, VA
Not a clue.


I can't seem to make this point clear, but it is technically not about the content of the checklists that is the issue. One cannot copyright facts.

it is about the presentation of the checklists. To quote CaseBriefs.com about the Feist v. Rural Telephone Service Co decision:



So while multiple companies can produce phone books containing the exact same names and numbers, one company cannot simply photocopy the other company's work and sell it. It is not the data to which Beckett applies its copyright claims, but the way they have arranged and displayed them. If Beckett’s listing for a card says this:

2005 Upper Deck HOF Signs of Cooperstown Quads Autograph Gold #BSAY Banks/Ozzie/Apar/Yount


Anyone else producing a checklist of the same set needs to make some effort to differentiate their version of the facts like this:

2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame Signs of Cooperstown Quad Autographs Gold #BSAY Ernie Banks / Ozzie Smith / Luis Aparicio / Robin Yount

What makes it obvious that people are copying Beckett's checklists is that for many more complicated cards, the other sites are using the exact same arrangement and text of Beckett's (sloppy) listings. If other sites would make the simple effort of cleaning up the data before reproducing it, there is no case. Beckett's checklists tend to be messy because of space saving measures dating back to their print business, and the often leave off prefixes to card numbering and even introduce erroneous numbering for some sets that are unnumbered or where Beckett simply couldn't be bothered to find the correct numbering. Other sites really need to be pushing themselves to improve upon what Beckett has done, not simply regurgitate it verbatim.

Thanks. That clears it up a bit.
 

S_Milligan

New member
Oct 27, 2014
3
0
I have never really used Beckett for pricing. i know what I am willing to pay for cards. In fact, I have no idea what new cards are "worth". It has always been about the catalogs and checklists and set identification. I don't know what will become of COMC, but not sure I'd care for a price structure based on what people on their site are selling cards for either. At least not until they get the traffic that ebay sets. The best gauge for pricing right now is ebay, period.

You should check out my free price guide based off completed on-line sales.

Cards are charted up and can be compared against each other as below




New sets and features are constantly being added :D
 

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rsmath

Active member
Nov 8, 2008
6,086
1
Do you have any idea what the person or person's running Zistle may do?

Surprised Zistle hasn't crowdfunded - it seems to be SOP when David gets sued by Goliath.

I suppose zistle could go to court almost right away and ask the judge to toss the case using some samples of checklists they have that Beckett doesn't as a reason to dismiss, but I imagine the judge will see there is enough smoke to not toss the case and then it gets really expensive to get to trial to decide it.
 

AUTaxMan

Active member
Nov 25, 2009
2,394
0
Mobile, AL
Surprised Zistle hasn't crowdfunded - it seems to be SOP when David gets sued by Goliath.

I suppose zistle could go to court almost right away and ask the judge to toss the case using some samples of checklists they have that Beckett doesn't as a reason to dismiss, but I imagine the judge will see there is enough smoke to not toss the case and then it gets really expensive to get to trial to decide it.

No judge would dismiss these allegations this soon. If you assume beckett's allegations are true, which is the standard for dismissal, then they would at the very least be entitled to a trial, unless their complaint fails for lack of jurisdiction or some other procedural problem.
 

AUTaxMan

Active member
Nov 25, 2009
2,394
0
Mobile, AL
You should check out my free price guide based off completed on-line sales.

Cards are charted up and can be compared against each other as below




New sets and features are constantly being added :D

This is what beckett should have been doing all along. I've never understood, though, how you could get accurate results, since so many cards are listed improperly.
 

DaClyde

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2010
1,614
58
Huntsville, AL
This is what beckett should have been doing all along. I've never understood, though, how you could get accurate results, since so many cards are listed improperly.

Beckett lacks vision. They behave like card companies with regard to their Marketplace in that they only want to work with large volume dealers. Long ago, they should have stood up something analogous to SportLots and connected what became the Organize product directly into the Beckett Marketplace. Then they should have bundled and made available something like a hybrid of The Card Collector software that would integrate with Beckett's web site to allow collectors and dealers to populate their inventory locally and push updates to the Beckett Marketplace storefront. The software could either be sold for a relatively small fee, but part of the use of the system is that all analytical data (inventory, sales and trade information) would be submitted to Beckett to support the price guide.

No single card should be allowed to be sold through Beckett's Marketplace without it being tied to a specific card record from Beckett's catalog. So sales of singles, sets, boxes, packs and cases could all be tracked. About the only thing that couldn't be tracked would be the sale of lots of assorted items, mainly because it would be too big a burden on the sellers to input all that data if they are just looking to unload an assorted 5000 count box of cards. The dealers and collecting community would be better served, Beckett's pricing data would be relevant, and the world would be a happier place. Beckett already has all the components it needs to be the hobby powerhouse it thinks it is, but they lack the vision to put all those pieces together. They're too obsessed with selling subscriptions (either to the magazines or the OPG) and not concerned enough with the quality of what is being sold.

If somehow COMC, Sportlots and Zistle merged, offering all of the capabilities of each system, as well as integration with eBay (or perhaps a competitor like BidStart, eBid or even Amazon, as the deal would be a lot cheaper), they could effectively crush Beckett's presumed dominance of the hobby. Unfortunately, I don't think COMC has the vision necessary to accomplish the task either.
 

bradical

Active member
Jun 21, 2009
4,938
0
402,712,515
Beckett lacks vision. They behave like card companies with regard to their Marketplace in that they only want to work with large volume dealers. Long ago, they should have stood up something analogous to SportLots and connected what became the Organize product directly into the Beckett Marketplace. Then they should have bundled and made available something like a hybrid of The Card Collector software that would integrate with Beckett's web site to allow collectors and dealers to populate their inventory locally and push updates to the Beckett Marketplace storefront. The software could either be sold for a relatively small fee, but part of the use of the system is that all analytical data (inventory, sales and trade information) would be submitted to Beckett to support the price guide.

No single card should be allowed to be sold through Beckett's Marketplace without it being tied to a specific card record from Beckett's catalog. So sales of singles, sets, boxes, packs and cases could all be tracked. About the only thing that couldn't be tracked would be the sale of lots of assorted items, mainly because it would be too big a burden on the sellers to input all that data if they are just looking to unload an assorted 5000 count box of cards. The dealers and collecting community would be better served, Beckett's pricing data would be relevant, and the world would be a happier place. Beckett already has all the components it needs to be the hobby powerhouse it thinks it is, but they lack the vision to put all those pieces together. They're too obsessed with selling subscriptions (either to the magazines or the OPG) and not concerned enough with the quality of what is being sold.

If somehow COMC, Sportlots and Zistle merged, offering all of the capabilities of each system, as well as integration with eBay (or perhaps a competitor like BidStart, eBid or even Amazon, as the deal would be a lot cheaper), they could effectively crush Beckett's presumed dominance of the hobby. Unfortunately, I don't think COMC has the vision necessary to accomplish the task either.

This has been my long standing vision when I created www.sportscardslist.com.

I have spread myself too thin with my day-to-day and personal life to have a tremendous amount of time to focus on the project for long periods of time, but over the course of this year, I expect the site to take a new shape and direction.

I firmly believe that Beckett's dominance can be challenged and beaten, even if its by a single person shop, like myself.
 

BenG76

Active member
May 15, 2013
1,819
2
Fancy Gap, VA
This has been my long standing vision when I created www.sportscardslist.com.

I have spread myself too thin with my day-to-day and personal life to have a tremendous amount of time to focus on the project for long periods of time, but over the course of this year, I expect the site to take a new shape and direction.

I firmly believe that Beckett's dominance can be challenged and beaten, even if its by a single person shop, like myself.

I had not been to your site in a while. Thanks for the reminder. Will look into it more.
 

DaClyde

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2010
1,614
58
Huntsville, AL
This has been my long standing vision when I created www.sportscardslist.com.

I have spread myself too thin with my day-to-day and personal life to have a tremendous amount of time to focus on the project for long periods of time, but over the course of this year, I expect the site to take a new shape and direction.

I firmly believe that Beckett's dominance can be challenged and beaten, even if its by a single person shop, like myself.

Unfortunately, you've got the same problem with your checklist data as almost everyone else. It is painfully obvious where most of it came from. No one will beat Beckett's dominance by plagiarizing their checklists.
 

bradical

Active member
Jun 21, 2009
4,938
0
402,712,515
Unfortunately, you've got the same problem with your checklist data as almost everyone else. It is painfully obvious where most of it came from. No one will beat Beckett's dominance by plagiarizing their checklists.

The difference between my data and others is that have the source code/intellectual property to show where my data was sourced from. Most of it comes directly from manufacturers, some of the other from various other hobbyists, blogs, and sites.

Now, knowing that Beckett has been the preeminent source of sports card data for a few decades, I have tried to mimic their naming system and nomenclatures as they have become industry norms.
 

DaClyde

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2010
1,614
58
Huntsville, AL
The difference between my data and others is that have the source code/intellectual property to show where my data was sourced from. Most of it comes directly from manufacturers, some of the other from various other hobbyists, blogs, and sites.

Now, knowing that Beckett has been the preeminent source of sports card data for a few decades, I have tried to mimic their naming system and nomenclatures as they have become industry norms.

There's a difference between mimicking their naming and just outright copying & pasting it. The main sets that are always telltale signs of that copying are the 2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame and 2005 Donruss Signature Hall of Fame sets. All of the multi-player cards, and even many of the single player cards, have all the exact same text including abbreviated and truncated names all the way down to the various codes (T1, T2, T3) that even Beckett doesn't explain on their website. The only places those codes are explained are in Beckett's physical books.

2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame Signs of Cooperstown Quads #KCPM Kill/Cep/Perez/McCov
2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame Signs of Cooperstown Quads #MRKS Murr/F.Rob/Kill/Schm
2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame Signs of Cooperstown Quads #WYKM B.Will/Yaz/Kiner/Musial


The only reason listings like that work on Beckett's site is because they are connected to more complete records in their back end database. Anyone who just copied & pasted those onto another site is just wasting their time and the time of their prospective users who will never find these cards when trying to search for any of these players. This is what Beckett is able to use as their primary evidence of copyright violation. By simply repeating Beckett's visually sloppy data, all you are doing is putting yourself at risk of being sued. If you copied the information directly from someone else who copied it from Beckett, you are just as liable as if you scraped it from Beckett's website yourself.
 

bradical

Active member
Jun 21, 2009
4,938
0
402,712,515
There's a difference between mimicking their naming and just outright copying & pasting it. The main sets that are always telltale signs of that copying are the 2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame and 2005 Donruss Signature Hall of Fame sets. All of the multi-player cards, and even many of the single player cards, have all the exact same text including abbreviated and truncated names all the way down to the various codes (T1, T2, T3) that even Beckett doesn't explain on their website. The only places those codes are explained are in Beckett's physical books.

2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame Signs of Cooperstown Quads #KCPM Kill/Cep/Perez/McCov
2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame Signs of Cooperstown Quads #MRKS Murr/F.Rob/Kill/Schm
2005 Upper Deck Hall of Fame Signs of Cooperstown Quads #WYKM B.Will/Yaz/Kiner/Musial


The only reason listings like that work on Beckett's site is because they are connected to more complete records in their back end database. Anyone who just copied & pasted those onto another site is just wasting their time and the time of their prospective users who will never find these cards when trying to search for any of these players. This is what Beckett is able to use as their primary evidence of copyright violation. By simply repeating Beckett's visually sloppy data, all you are doing is putting yourself at risk of being sued. If you copied the information directly from someone else who copied it from Beckett, you are just as liable as if you scraped it from Beckett's website yourself.

Interesting.

So it appears that a lot other large sites out there with some dirty data that I have been using as a source. This leads me to believe there is a pretty large pool people of who have sourced the Beckett data and altered it to their sites needs, to which I have found and sourced for my site.

I re-synced some of my data back to the manufacturer.

http://www.sportscardslist.com/base...brew-orlando-cepeda-tony-perez-willie-mccovey
http://www.sportscardslist.com/base...-frank-robinson-harmon-killebrew-mike-schmidt
http://www.sportscardslist.com/base...iams-carl-yastrzemski-ralph-kiner-stan-musial
 
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DaClyde

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2010
1,614
58
Huntsville, AL
Interesting.

So it appears that a lot other large sites out there with some dirty data that I have been using as a source. This leads me to believe there is a pretty large pool people of who have sourced the Beckett data and altered it to their sites needs, to which I have found and sourced for my site.

I re-synced some of my data back to the manufacturer.

http://www.sportscardslist.com/base...brew-orlando-cepeda-tony-perez-willie-mccovey
http://www.sportscardslist.com/base...-frank-robinson-harmon-killebrew-mike-schmidt
http://www.sportscardslist.com/base...iams-carl-yastrzemski-ralph-kiner-stan-musial

I would not be surprised if MOST of the data you find for pre-2010, as far as sets that Beckett includes, was just Beckett data re-published on some other site. And some of it will be so simple and generic, that pretty much everyone would end up with the same results when assembling a checklist. But with more complicated information like multi-player cards, error & corrected cards, variations and buy backs will all start to look slightly different when different people create their own listings. If every site is showing the exact same data, it will all look alike and there is a very good chance it was just swiped from Beckett.

It frustrates me to no end that the sites I contribute to do not have higher standards for the data they accept, which puts all of my work at risk.

Your listings for that set look a LOT better now.
 
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VizquelCollector.com

Active member
Jul 31, 2009
1,494
0
I don't know what a "complete" checklist of cards would look like. Millions of cards, I guess. Not really a reasonable project for a couple hobbyists to re-do.

Seems like a perfect project to be crowdsourced.

Obviously there are a ton fewer sets than cards, so I'd start there. Begin building a database of just the sets themselves. Crowdsource the effort to backfill the sets with cards. Look at the naming convention Beckett uses for each, and make deliberate/strategic decisions on if/how every card should be renamed. It only has to be done once per set, and that rule applies to all cards in it. However if it's 1988 Topps... then maybe there's nothing needed.

That's still a massive undertaking. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Start with 1980 - 1990, and limit it to just the primary manufacturers. Set collectors should be able to help in a hurry.

And maybe I missed this... but are the manufacturers in agreement with Beckett? Don't they provide checklists? Seems like you could get a ton of the data from them directly or from their own checklists. How could Beckett claim to own the list that Topps printed on a CHECKLIST CARD?

Anyway, I really think there's an opportunity here. It's kind of like SABR. Use the enthusiasm of the masses to research and publish info for the greater good.

Set up a small committee of knowledgeable people in the hobby with varied expertise- vintage, set collectors, high-end guys, player collectors, and oddball guys. People submit sets for review, they approve and post. As people notice problems or items needing changed, submit it to the committee for review.

I think you could also beat Beckett to the punch by posting preliminary checklists of new releases before they do. Now who owns the material?
 

Joey_peapod

Active member
Jan 27, 2014
687
30
All in adding to this is no way is Beckett looked at like KBB. That's absurd. 90% of their pricing is no where close to realized prices
 

RStadlerASU22

Active member
Jan 2, 2013
8,881
11
I don't know what a "complete" checklist of cards would look like. Millions of cards, I guess. Not really a reasonable project for a couple hobbyists to re-do.

Seems like a perfect project to be crowdsourced.

Obviously there are a ton fewer sets than cards, so I'd start there. Begin building a database of just the sets themselves. Crowdsource the effort to backfill the sets with cards. Look at the naming convention Beckett uses for each, and make deliberate/strategic decisions on if/how every card should be renamed. It only has to be done once per set, and that rule applies to all cards in it. However if it's 1988 Topps... then maybe there's nothing needed.

That's still a massive undertaking. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Start with 1980 - 1990, and limit it to just the primary manufacturers. Set collectors should be able to help in a hurry.

And maybe I missed this... but are the manufacturers in agreement with Beckett? Don't they provide checklists? Seems like you could get a ton of the data from them directly or from their own checklists. How could Beckett claim to own the list that Topps printed on a CHECKLIST CARD?

Anyway, I really think there's an opportunity here. It's kind of like SABR. Use the enthusiasm of the masses to research and publish info for the greater good.

Set up a small committee of knowledgeable people in the hobby with varied expertise- vintage, set collectors, high-end guys, player collectors, and oddball guys. People submit sets for review, they approve and post. As people notice problems or items needing changed, submit it to the committee for review.

I think you could also beat Beckett to the punch by posting preliminary checklists of new releases before they do. Now who owns the material?

It sounds great , and something I've been wanting to do as well. It all really depends if there are actually enough people willing to take on the task. I have a pet project in the works and would love any motivated people involved. I just don't know if the scope makes people think it's to massive to even begin.

Ryan
 

BenG76

Active member
May 15, 2013
1,819
2
Fancy Gap, VA
You know if someone would make a site that works like Beckett is supposed to I would gladly pay a reasonable price for the service. It would be great to have a place to keep up with what you have. Others could see what you need and trades could be done. Plus it could be good for those that insure the collections they have as well.
 

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