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HOF pitching stats?

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cards01fan

New member
Sep 4, 2008
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0
With wins being such an arbitrary statistic, what would be the best guild lines for a HOF pitcher. 10 year run of dominance? Era under 3, WAR ? Let me know what you guys think.
 

ChasHawk

New member
Sep 4, 2008
22,482
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Belvidere, Illinois
Arbitrary or not, wins is def. a big factor.

Some pitchers (Koufax) have gotten in because of shorter runs of absolute dominance, but many/most HOF pitchers had long good/great careers during which they accumulated a lot of wins.
 

D-Lite

New member
Nov 10, 2010
1,872
0
SF Peninsula
Wins give you the Don Suttons of the HoF.

Sabermatrians give you the Blylevens and Gossages.

I'd say there's a definite shift in thinking these days. The counting stats will get you noticed but not in, especially as a reliever. 300 wins, 4000 K's, 3+ Cy Youngs, should all get you in (unless you're Clemens).

For me, the interesting cases for pitchers:
Mussina - had a sustained run of VERY good and has very good counting stats for a modern day pitcher (270 wins, 2813 K's, 3.68 ERA), but no Cy's
Lincecum - best days already behind him it seems, but absolutely dominant for a short duration, winning 2 Cy's and 2 WS
Halladay - 7 times in top 5 Cy voting (2x 1st, 2x 2nd), very good K/BB%, but not going to get the counting stats (201 wins, 2101 K's)

We're not probably going to see many more 300 win pitchers and I think that makes something like Mussina's 270 a big number. Pettitte is close at 253, but hasn't had the dominance (though did Sutton really have that either?). Thinking will have to shift if the HoF is to induct more starters.
 

U L Washington Rookie

Active member
Dec 7, 2012
1,623
0
D Town
Oh but those 6 years.
27 CG in back-to-back seasons?

Imagine if he didn't get that "arthritis".

The 'what if' game is fun, but career arcs can surprise you. As a recent example, Johan Santana had six pretty awesome seasons, too [different eras, Koufax played on some excellent teams, etc; don't take this as me saying Santana was better].
 

PoseyBuster

Banned
Jul 17, 2013
1,835
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The 'what if' game is fun, but career arcs can surprise you. As a recent example, Johan Santana had six pretty awesome seasons, too [different eras, Koufax played on some excellent teams, etc; don't take this as me saying Santana was better].

Are you saying that Johan Santana was better than Sandy Koufax!? :O :O :O
 

cards01fan

New member
Sep 4, 2008
345
0
If you play the injury card, it would be nice to see what Chris Carpenter would have done playing injury free or even less injuries
 

matfanofold

Active member
Aug 10, 2008
7,645
1
Like it or not, Wins are one of, if not the most important statistic a pitcher can have in his favor. Sure, it is a team statistic but speaks volumes about a pitchers field generalship. There are intangibles in the game that can not be measured by a abacus, and some pitchers command these intangibles above and beyond others. This translates to W's... So what the op calls arbitrary is, in reality, very important and telling...

As for the direct question, voters like pitchers who are winners.
 

Topnotchsy

Featured Contributor, The best players in history?
Aug 7, 2008
9,446
170
...and a mere six years gives you Koufax in the HOF.

Precedent was actually set when Dizzy Dean got in after only pitching 5 full seasons (and only one other partial season of note).

Personally I don't think Johan will make the Hall but he's the type of player I feel deserves it. He was the best pitcher in baseball for quite some time.
 

VandyDan

New member
Dec 5, 2011
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What about Lincy? A stretch of 2 Cys in 4 rather dominant years. If he has a couple more above average seasons, is he in on a Koufax theory (short term utter dominance)?

I argue with my fellow sabr losers on whether or not he is a candidate quite often, actually.
 

matfanofold

Active member
Aug 10, 2008
7,645
1
What about Lincy? A stretch of 2 Cys in 4 rather dominant years. If he has a couple more above average seasons, is he in on a Koufax theory (short term utter dominance)?

I argue with my fellow sabr losers on whether or not he is a candidate quite often, actually.

That's an intriguing question...

My opinion is that he lost too much, too quickly. However he still has plenty of time to turn it around.
 

Topnotchsy

Featured Contributor, The best players in history?
Aug 7, 2008
9,446
170
What about Lincy? A stretch of 2 Cys in 4 rather dominant years. If he has a couple more above average seasons, is he in on a Koufax theory (short term utter dominance)?

I argue with my fellow sabr losers on whether or not he is a candidate quite often, actually.

I think that the Koufax level dominance is only a ticket to the Hall if the player loses dominance because of injury. If Lincecum cannot return to playing at a high level he will fall into the Doc Gooden category of pitcher.
 

VandyDan

New member
Dec 5, 2011
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I think that the Koufax level dominance is only a ticket to the Hall if the player loses dominance because of injury. If Lincecum cannot return to playing at a high level he will fall into the Doc Gooden category of pitcher.

What if it turns out he was hurt these past few years?

Or what say he has a couple 15-7 seasons in his early-mid 30s, with around 1 k/inning, and an era under 3.50?

I mean, if no one was as dominant for those 5-6 years as Koufax, no one was as dominant as Big Time Timmy Jims in those 2-3 years.
 

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