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Shiller, Snipers & Sh*theads ... lets talk about it!

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ThoseBackPages

New member
Aug 7, 2008
32,986
8
New York
Shilling happens, i dont think anyone would deny that in 2015. That being said, where else other then eBay will you get 99 cent auctions?

it was said in another thread that Sniping is not the way to go if you want to avoid "shilling"

i would like someone to sell me on that, because i am not convinced.
 

homerun28aa

Active member
Jun 8, 2011
19,072
8
I don't see much of a difference between sniping and placing your max bid outright. If you snipe your highest offer and lose the auction, it's the same result as placing your max bid 5 minutes after the auction starts and stopping once you're outbid.
The issue is when it becomes a card that you feel you have to have; in that case, you usually don't take the chance that your snipe may not be high enough and you bid on the auction throughout it's life each time convincing yourself that you are ok with spending this new amount you're bidding. On a lot of high-ticket items, two bidders will convince themselves that this card is a must have for them and if that happens and you add a third shiller into the mix, the price can really skyrocket.
 

RStadlerASU22

Active member
Jan 2, 2013
8,881
11
I don't see much of a difference between sniping and placing your max bid outright. If you snipe your highest offer and lose the auction, it's the same result as placing your max bid 5 minutes after the auction starts and stopping once you're outbid.
The issue is when it becomes a card that you feel you have to have; in that case, you usually don't take the chance that your snipe may not be high enough and you bid on the auction throughout it's life each time convincing yourself that you are ok with spending this new amount you're bidding. On a lot of high-ticket items, two bidders will convince themselves that this card is a must have for them and if that happens and you add a third shiller into the mix, the price can really skyrocket.

You kinda answered / changed your thought at the end to why there is a difference. It's a mind game of once you get outbid and know it , you and maybe the other bidder when he is outbid , bid "just because" and by the time your done you could be 100% more than what you really felt like paying. With a snipe , basically you don't have a chance to bid again just not to lose it. So yes it's the same if you placed the same amount and don't rebid once you're outbid, but the measuring contest takes over sometimes.

Ryan
 

Musial Collector

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
5,671
2
A true "shiller" will typically NOT put in a max bid at any point, they bump the price up little by little.
So if you as a legit buyer put in a max bid of $100 on an item, a shiller will bid up in the least amount possible to bump your bid up with the attempt of not going over your max bid.

Therefore if you put in your max bid at the last possible second, you can try and avoid the small incremental increases with a typical shill. Not saying you will be void of shilling, but you can attempt to avoid it.
 

RStadlerASU22

Active member
Jan 2, 2013
8,881
11
A true "shiller" will typically NOT put in a max bid at any point, they bump the price up little by little.
So if you as a legit buyer put in a max bid of $100 on an item, a shiller will bid up in the least amount possible to bump your bid up with the attempt of not going over your max bid.

Therefore if you put in your max bid at the last possible second, you can try and avoid the small incremental increases with a typical shill. Not saying you will be void of shilling, but you can attempt to avoid it.

And, yes that is another way sniping works best in possible shill situations. The shiller doesn't really want to be the winner, so if there are no bids to bump up then it's less likely to occur. Now they can still put in a bid that would have to be beaten out, but usually that would be a below market by a decent amount , as they don't really want to win the card.

Ryan
 

Luck15Hope

New member
Jan 11, 2012
140
0
A true "shiller" will typically NOT put in a max bid at any point, they bump the price up little by little.
So if you as a legit buyer put in a max bid of $100 on an item, a shiller will bid up in the least amount possible to bump your bid up with the attempt of not going over your max bid.

Therefore if you put in your max bid at the last possible second, you can try and avoid the small incremental increases with a typical shill. Not saying you will be void of shilling, but you can attempt to avoid it.
The bold statement is correct to an extent. Shill bidders do put in max bids as "reserves" for what they wish to receive. You usually see these types of bids with items that are being sold on consignment. Yes, shillers bid in small increments when they notice others bidding to drive the price up. Other shillers place 1 bid, a maximum bid if you will, as a false "reserve" price for what they wish to receive for the item. If the item doesnt reach this shill price, the item is then usually relisted as a BIN above what the item went for at auction if the shill bidder happens to win the auction and his "reserve" shill bid is not met with a higher bid. There is no "true" shill bidder, it is all shill bidding no matter if you place small increments once other bids have been placed, or if you place a "reserve" shill bid.
it was said in another thread that Sniping is not the way to go if you want to avoid "shilling"

i would like someone to sell me on that, because i am not convinced.

As for the sniping aspect in response to the OP. Sniping will prevent you from the shillers who do bid in small increments to drive the price up throughout the auction. Sniping does not however, prevent you from being shilled by "reserve" shill bids.

 
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gamecockfanatic

Active member
Jun 17, 2009
945
25
Gamecock Country
personally i never have (and never will) use a program to snipe....

that would entail to0 much....when i bid , i may submit a place-holder bid (usually $1) just to make sure the item appears on my active list and doesn't get lost in the shuffle of 4-500 items i may have on my watchlists.....if i know i won't have access to a computer at closing time , i will put in my true max bid just as i leave home and hope for the best...otherwise , my bids are almost always limited to the final 2-5 seconds of the listing (except when i'm bidding on lots of items from the same seeler that all close within 5-10 seconds of each other , ie , items listed in bulk with no time to shift between them to place individaul bids at the very end)....some items i win , others i lose , but when my bid goes in with 2 seconds to go , the shillers who nudge the price up don't have time to do so....also , bidding manually like this allows me to adjust on the fly....i may be trying for 20-30 items within a few minutes of each other and have an idea of what i'd LIKE to pay as well as what i'd be WILLING to pay for one or all items...each item i win takes away from my cash on hand , but for each one that goes cheaper than expected i have a little extra funds available for the next item....likewise, for each item i LOSE , everything i'd budgeted for it is now availabel for other items so i can just play it by ear as each listing comes to a close....
 

ThoseBackPages

New member
Aug 7, 2008
32,986
8
New York
personally i never have (and never will) use a program to snipe....

that would entail to0 much....when i bid , i may submit a place-holder bid (usually $1) just to make sure the item appears on my active list and doesn't get lost in the shuffle of 4-500 items i may have on my watchlists.....if i know i won't have access to a computer at closing time , i will put in my true max bid just as i leave home and hope for the best...otherwise , my bids are almost always limited to the final 2-5 seconds of the listing (except when i'm bidding on lots of items from the same seeler that all close within 5-10 seconds of each other , ie , items listed in bulk with no time to shift between them to place individaul bids at the very end)....some items i win , others i lose , but when my bid goes in with 2 seconds to go , the shillers who nudge the price up don't have time to do so....also , bidding manually like this allows me to adjust on the fly....i may be trying for 20-30 items within a few minutes of each other and have an idea of what i'd LIKE to pay as well as what i'd be WILLING to pay for one or all items...each item i win takes away from my cash on hand , but for each one that goes cheaper than expected i have a little extra funds available for the next item....likewise, for each item i LOSE , everything i'd budgeted for it is now availabel for other items so i can just play it by ear as each listing comes to a close....

That's too bad! LOL
 

gamecockfanatic

Active member
Jun 17, 2009
945
25
Gamecock Country
i see nothing bad , sad , unfortunate , or funny in any way in my first sentence....by bidding manually i don't pay for a service ....i don't rely upon a service that could fail (as evidenced by tons of posts i've seen over the years in which someone created a thread to complain about their sniping program failing to go off causing them to miss out on an item they really wanted) .... i'm free to adjust on the fly to bid more or less based on the results of other items ending only minutes apart....i still get my bids in near enough to the end that shillers don't have a chance to bump the bids up ....and if anyone using a snipe program DOES get in a late bid , if it doesn't top my manual bid they also seldom have a chance to up the bid and take the item from me.....all in all , i'd say i come out just fine....
 

homerun28aa

Active member
Jun 8, 2011
19,072
8
You kinda answered / changed your thought at the end to why there is a difference. It's a mind game of once you get outbid and know it , you and maybe the other bidder when he is outbid , bid "just because" and by the time your done you could be 100% more than what you really felt like paying. With a snipe , basically you don't have a chance to bid again just not to lose it. So yes it's the same if you placed the same amount and don't rebid once you're outbid, but the measuring contest takes over sometimes.

Ryan

If you're mentally strong enough to hold yourself accountable to the fact that your max bid will actually be your max bid then there should be no difference, but yes our desire for that particular piece could push us into bidding more. Again, this is only really applicable for those very rare must have cards IMO because with the more common stuff that frequents eBay you'll almost never see something deviate from the market prices therefore shilling really just becomes inapplicable.
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
6,188
4,099
No way to really prove it, but you almost certainly pay more for your items in total than you would if you sniped. It is almost a sure thing that if I bid on something, someone comes along and outbids me. This is not a 1-2 time thing. I sometimes purposely place mid range bids just to test this and sure enough, out comes woody woodpecker to chip away at my bid until they top me. Often it is 4-6 bids in small increments until they are on top. I have actually come back and toyed with this kind of bidder and raised my bid another $10-20 and often they will come back with the same bidding strategy until they are on top again. You can't tell me that snipe bid wouldn't help avoid this type of activity.

Assume this is a desirable item and I want to pay $50 and that is what I bid right off the bat. In my example, someone comes along and just chips away at my bid until they are at $51. I can't necessarily prove that the item might have sold for less with a snipe, but the chances are good that it would go for less than $ Like someone said, if there are no bids to beat, people often bid less. Everyone wants the best and cheapest price.

To each their own, but I think that if you tried it, you would soon become a fan. Not trying to convince you, as it is up to each person to decide on their own, but there isn't an argument against sniping that holds up over time, especially if you take the right precautions.

Smart phones have allowed people the freedom and mobility that prior to used to tie people to a computer. That is less of a reason to need to snipe, but then there are those crazy auctions that and et 3AM. WTF, right? I have done the wake up and bid thing in the past, but that sucked! Sniping frees you up to forget about the item all together and come back later to a victory (most of the time). Several snipe programs are free and using Gixen as an example, you can use their service for free but if you pay $6 for a YEAR for the mirror service, it gives you a pretty solid back-up with 2 servers. I used to use auction sniper, but it was a quarter per snipe, then more depending on how much the final bid was. it was nothing to wipe out $5-10 in a few months with their service!

I have been burned by the free Gixen system and I may have even gotten burned a time or two with the mirror service (had it for a year to test it out), and even lost a few toughies due to tech issues with the snipe program that really stung, but before sniping I have also forgotten to bid, got to a computer too late, had computer freeze/refresh issues during a last second bid and in the end, sniping is really the only way I will go and if i want to be 100% sure, I might even make arrangements for a last second manual bid to give myself extra insurance.

I am 100% convinced that I pay less overall too for what i win. No doubt in my mind.

i see nothing bad , sad , unfortunate , or funny in any way in my first sentence....by bidding manually i don't pay for a service ....i don't rely upon a service that could fail (as evidenced by tons of posts i've seen over the years in which someone created a thread to complain about their sniping program failing to go off causing them to miss out on an item they really wanted) .... i'm free to adjust on the fly to bid more or less based on the results of other items ending only minutes apart....i still get my bids in near enough to the end that shillers don't have a chance to bump the bids up ....and if anyone using a snipe program DOES get in a late bid , if it doesn't top my manual bid they also seldom have a chance to up the bid and take the item from me.....all in all , i'd say i come out just fine....
 

Musial Collector

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
5,671
2
i see nothing bad , sad , unfortunate , or funny in any way in my first sentence....by bidding manually i don't pay for a service ....i don't rely upon a service that could fail (as evidenced by tons of posts i've seen over the years in which someone created a thread to complain about their sniping program failing to go off causing them to miss out on an item they really wanted) .... i'm free to adjust on the fly to bid more or less based on the results of other items ending only minutes apart....i still get my bids in near enough to the end that shillers don't have a chance to bump the bids up ....and if anyone using a snipe program DOES get in a late bid , if it doesn't top my manual bid they also seldom have a chance to up the bid and take the item from me.....all in all , i'd say i come out just fine....

Gixen free
esnipe free
(insert any number of other snipe sites) free free free

You can adjust your snipe "on the fly"

I exclusively use gixen and never had a snipe fail. Its a long shot of one failing. If its a must have item i will typically manually snipe AND put in a snipe in gixen (in case I forget to manually snipe).
 

predatorkj

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
11,871
2
Gixen free
esnipe free
(insert any number of other snipe sites) free free free

You can adjust your snipe "on the fly"

I exclusively use gixen and never had a snipe fail. Its a long shot of one failing. If its a must have item i will typically manually snipe AND put in a snipe in gixen (in case I forget to manually snipe).

Yes, as if eBay getting hacked into wasn't enough, we all need to throw that info out there for gixen or whoever so we can worry about it when they get hacked too. No thanks, free or not. Besides, I miss things manually sniping. Missed out on a card I would have paid quadruple what it went for. But at least it's my failure. I got mad. But it's cool. I would not be cool depending on a service to place my bids.

And if you've got the time to adjust snipes on the fly, why use the snipes. He's got a point about adjusting on the fly.
 

gamecockfanatic

Active member
Jun 17, 2009
945
25
Gamecock Country
No way to really prove it, but you almost certainly pay more for your items in total than you would if you sniped. It is almost a sure thing that if I bid on something, someone comes along and outbids me. This is not a 1-2 time thing. I sometimes purposely place mid range bids just to test this and sure enough, out comes woody woodpecker to chip away at my bid until they top me. Often it is 4-6 bids in small increments until they are on top. I have actually come back and toyed with this kind of bidder and raised my bid another $10-20 and often they will come back with the same bidding strategy until they are on top again. You can't tell me that snipe bid wouldn't help avoid this type of activity.

Assume this is a desirable item and I want to pay $50 and that is what I bid right off the bat. In my example, someone comes along and just chips away at my bid until they are at $51. I can't necessarily prove that the item might have sold for less with a snipe, but the chances are good that it would go for less than $ Like someone said, if there are no bids to beat, people often bid less. Everyone wants the best and cheapest price.

To each their own, but I think that if you tried it, you would soon become a fan. Not trying to convince you, as it is up to each person to decide on their own, but there isn't an argument against sniping that holds up over time, especially if you take the right precautions.

Smart phones have allowed people the freedom and mobility that prior to used to tie people to a computer. That is less of a reason to need to snipe, but then there are those crazy auctions that and et 3AM. WTF, right? I have done the wake up and bid thing in the past, but that sucked! Sniping frees you up to forget about the item all together and come back later to a victory (most of the time). Several snipe programs are free and using Gixen as an example, you can use their service for free but if you pay $6 for a YEAR for the mirror service, it gives you a pretty solid back-up with 2 servers. I used to use auction sniper, but it was a quarter per snipe, then more depending on how much the final bid was. it was nothing to wipe out $5-10 in a few months with their service!

I have been burned by the free Gixen system and I may have even gotten burned a time or two with the mirror service (had it for a year to test it out), and even lost a few toughies due to tech issues with the snipe program that really stung, but before sniping I have also forgotten to bid, got to a computer too late, had computer freeze/refresh issues during a last second bid and in the end, sniping is really the only way I will go and if i want to be 100% sure, I might even make arrangements for a last second manual bid to give myself extra insurance.

I am 100% convinced that I pay less overall too for what i win. No doubt in my mind.


i disagree 100%.....aside from when i'm at my bowling league or on the way to or from work , i have access to a pc pretty much 24-7....i DO not have a smart phone or any other wireless device - and frankly i don't want those.....since 99% of my bids aren't submitted until the final 2-4 seconds , the shillers (or other legit underbidders) really do not have the opportunity to "chip away at my bid" (my bid is entered with no more than 4 seconds to go...they see they've been outbid but they have literally 1-2 seconds left to up it and that doesn't leave them time to bump it up little by little... ....as for items ending at 3 AM - love those.......i'm usually wide awake from 10 AM til the following morning at 7 AM.....even if i am not planning on sitting at my desk all day/night , if i have an item i really want that i know is closing at a certain time , i make sure i'm at my pc to place my bid at the end and if i KNOW i won't be available , i place my REAL bid before i leave....no one can ever convince me i should use a sniping program - manual bidding is by far better for me and i too am 100% sure that my last-second bids either win the item at the best possible price or lose out to a legit competitor who was going to top me whether i bid manually or via a program....
 

gamecockfanatic

Active member
Jun 17, 2009
945
25
Gamecock Country
Yes, as if eBay getting hacked into wasn't enough, we all need to throw that info out there for gixen or whoever so we can worry about it when they get hacked too. No thanks, free or not. Besides, I miss things manually sniping. Missed out on a card I would have paid quadruple what it went for. But at least it's my failure. I got mad. But it's cool. I would not be cool depending on a service to place my bids.

And if you've got the time to adjust snipes on the fly, why use the snipes. He's got a point about adjusting on the fly.




first off , i'm not a paranoid guy who is constatnly terrified of big brother or identity theft...that said , i'm also generally wise/careful/cautious enugh to not openly OFFER my info to the entire world for free....as such , i can absolutely see your point about not wanting to give all you info to more people/sites than necessary even if it is free...your point is spot on....


regarding adjusting on the fly and another's poster's comment about we all have smart phones that give us access without being at the pc....i do not own (and have no plans to get) a smart phone , a tablet , or any other mobile device.....if i'm online it is at a pc (and not even a laptop - my desktop...one at the shop....my mom's or dad's when i'm at their house....or a friend's if i'm at his house ...) by being at a pc when an item is ending , i can adjust on the fly when i discover at the last second that i have either more or less available money becuase of an unexpected win or loss or due to an item costing me more or less than i expected...lose an item i was sure i'd win and i have more funds to channel into the next "must have" item....
 

nyc3

Active member
Aug 20, 2008
5,305
0
it was said in another thread that Sniping is not the way to go if you want to avoid "shilling"

i would like someone to sell me on that, because i am not convinced.

Can you explain exactly how shilling is avoided by sniping? Because it literally does nothing but not show the person interest right away.

If I have an item for sale and I am a shiller here is exactly how, it dont matter if you snipe or bid day 1 you are paying extra.


My card has 2 minutes left and I bid up (shilled) the card to $100 with my max bid $120 days ago. You come along with your snipe with seconds left and win for $121. You GOT SHILLED. Now how exactly did it get avoided? You paid more because of my high bid which I set. Your snipe was completely useless and you paid more. You just did it in the final seconds. Now I can see how you can not got shilled a bit more by sniping but thats not the point nor the question, you already paid more than if the seller didnt bid therefore you got shilled while sniping.

If I didnt bid on my own item (shill) you win the card for $100 meaning I just shilled you for the extra cash even with your snipe.
 
Last edited:

jonebone

Member
Jan 3, 2011
391
0
MD
Sniping is the only way to go for me, been doing it fine for 7 years, never have had a snipe fail. I use myibay, a convenient, free, firefox plugin.

My main reason for not bidding is to hide my interest in an item. Especially on things that have a high start. Example, let's say there's a $500 item with a start bid of $400. On low demand stuff, everyone may just wait it out, hoping for a cheaper relist. Then a snipe at $400 might win at $400. Or, you place your $400 bid right away, clue everyone else into your bidding and knowing that it won't be relisted, now people are forced to make their bids.

That's just one example. Saving money is great and the convenience of not worrying when items end is a godsend. No other way for me.
 

robertwolf1

New member
Aug 8, 2008
376
0
"A true "shiller" will typically NOT put in a max bid at any point, they bump the price up little by little.
So if you as a legit buyer put in a max bid of $100 on an item, a shiller will bid up in the least amount possible to bump your bid up with the attempt of not going over your max bid.

Therefore if you put in your max bid at the last possible second, you can try and avoid the small incremental increases with a typical shill. Not saying you will be void of shilling, but you can attempt to avoid it"


This. Best way to avoid most of it
 

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