So why does Topps only try....

on the prospect products? Definitely pushing the envelope forward in the prospect realm with the solid checklist, new parallels, new card ideas and the like....

Why do they only do this to one product a year on the Vet/HOF side?

Discussion? Go....

Good points will be brought up on the podcast for next week....

My guess would be that it is cheaper to put together the prospect products. Prospects charge way less for a signature than Vet/HOF do. Therefore allowing for a better autograph checklist. This takes care of the autograph portion, now as for the actual product design, parallels, and inserts... I have no idea. Might be because the prospect products sell a whole lot better than any vet/HOF products. These days everyone is a prospector.

Because they need to satisfy different consumer segments. It's not that they aren't putting in effort to the other products, it's that they are a business and understand when to limit their resources to achieve a certain price point.

That, and we're slightly biased in regards to their prospect-related products here....

Possibly "less risky" for them to do it on prospect products compared to the traditional topps/topps chrome sets. I like that the die cuts are actually easy to get in penny sleeves though. Could be just me, but usually it's a pain to get them to easily slide in.

What exactly are they trying out that's supposedly exclusive and new to prospect sets?

Nothing I've seen isn't something that they previously tried with base Topps or similar non-prospect sets.

Because they dont have to

Because They dont know what they are missing (Money Wise)! I think Jbrown hit it on the head with his first part in that its just cheaper to do Prospect sets. Real Hof/Vet Game used stuff is expensive! I have matched a couple of Topps Hof/Vet Patch cards to other auctions that have ended in the last couple of years and noticed for HOf/Vet stuff they have been buying pants pieces which are considerably cheaper than jersey. Topps has gotten cheap over the years and thats really my problem with them. Now I disagree with Jbrowns Last sentence about prospects stuff selling better than Hof/Vet stuff. I Guarantee that if Topps put as much effort (Barring Money) and done right (Not pants pieces or bench pieces), into a Hof/Vet Product atleast once a year not only would it sell better than Prospect Product they would make money. Not as much money as they would their Chrome (because it will always be cheaper to make a prospect product) but enough to make it worth while. They really dont know what they are missing.

200lbhockeyplayer said:

What exactly are they trying out that's supposedly exclusive and new to prospect sets?

Nothing I've seen isn't something that they previously tried with base Topps or similar non-prospect sets.

Click to expand...

The Jumbo box topper autos HAVE been done before sure, but they didn't have to do them. The minis are an old concept, but they didn't have to do them for prospects for the first time. This product (2013 Bowman) is loaded and it didn't really have to be.

I think the point I was getting at is why chock this one product full of value but keep Tier One, Museum collection, A&G, Tribute so stale for the most part? Its cheaper for prospect autos no doubt, but when you are already paying for vet autos for vet products, why not at least try to push the envelope there for more than once a release calendar?

bmc398 said:

on the prospect products? Definitely pushing the envelope forward in the prospect realm with the solid checklist, new parallels, new card ideas and the like....

Why do they only do this to one product a year on the Vet/HOF side?

Discussion? Go....

Good points will be brought up on the podcast for next week....

Click to expand...

I think you're stirring the pot here to sensationalize your podcast - I don't think most people believe there's any real problem with *base* MLB-focused products (like Topps/TC/Finest). Frankly high-end is just a different part of the hobby that not everyone enjoys as much.

One tends to remember the negative things more than positive ones, so the 'complaining minority' is smaller than it seems. Oddly enough the complaints generally come from people who spend waaay too much time and energy in the hobby... but oddly things never seem bad enough for them to leave - what does this say? A kind person would say all this makes the hobby look really nerdy, but an unkind person would say these people need a life!

mlbsalltimegreats said:

Because They dont know what they are missing (Money Wise)! I think Jbrown hit it on the head with his first part in that its just cheaper to do Prospect sets. Real Hof/Vet Game used stuff is expensive! I have matched a couple of Topps Hof/Vet Patch cards to other auctions that have ended in the last couple of years and noticed for HOf/Vet stuff they have been buying pants pieces which are considerably cheaper than jersey. Topps has gotten cheap over the years and thats really my problem with them. Now I disagree with Jbrowns Last sentence about prospects stuff selling better than Hof/Vet stuff. I Guarantee that if Topps put as much effort (Barring Money) and done right (Not pants pieces or bench pieces), into a Hof/Vet Product atleast once a year not only would it sell better than Prospect Product they would make money. Not as much money as they would their Chrome (because it will always be cheaper to make a prospect product) but enough to make it worth while. They really dont know what they are missing.

Click to expand...

Well put. Its a mixture of the fact that they just don't have to and why put in the extra effort to search for quality memorabilia when we have this perfectly used bench from an old stadium that Babe Ruth may have looked at while playing a game there 100 years ago that we are going to market (or just not say really what it is) as a true piece of GU memorabilia.

uniquebaseballcards said:

I think you're stirring the pot here to sensationalize your podcast - I don't think most people believe there's any real problem with *base* MLB-focused products (like Topps/TC/Finest). Frankly high-end is just a different part of the hobby that not everyone enjoys as much.

One tends to remember the negative things more than positive ones, so the 'complaining minority' is smaller than it seems. Oddly enough the complaints generally come from people who spend waaay too much time and energy in the hobby... but oddly things never seem bad enough for them to leave - what does this say? A kind person would say all this makes the hobby look really nerdy, but an unkind person would say these people need a life!

Click to expand...

You mad bro? Sounds like you have an axe to grind somewhere....that isn't here. I don't think anybody said that they were walking away from the hobby here. The point was that innovation is basically dead in the space now....not because there's nowhere to go....but because Topps isn't pushing the market because they don't have to. People are seeing breaks of this product and are running to the LCS to get their hands on it. Why does this only happen once a year in the space for Topps?

This isn't to market or sensationalize anything for the podcast...its a real and relevant issue to the business and the hobby in general. When there is no innovation in the space, people walk away. The only thing that brings them back are great cards and must have players. THe point is that the vet stuff is so overdone and recycled that if it isn't something new and constantly moving forward it hurts the hobby because LCS' and Online retailers can't sell product that they are forced to order. If you don't see the business issues for the hobby (your hobby, I am assuming thats why you are here)then you aren't looking at this critically. Since I do a podcast on the industry...I do think about the business side of the hobby at times. Sports card shops HAVE been affected by the lack of innovation in the space. Some of that is their own fault yes, but when stores that charge fair margins on products and do provide a service can't sell the product you force them to buy....a problem IS being created.

bmc398 said:

The Jumbo box topper autos HAVE been done before sure, but they didn't have to do them. The minis are an old concept, but they didn't have to do them for prospects for the first time. This product (2013 Bowman) is loaded and it didn't really have to be.

I think the point I was getting at is why chock this one product full of value but keep Tier One, Museum collection, A&G, Tribute so stale for the most part? Its cheaper for prospect autos no doubt, but when you are already paying for vet autos for vet products, why not at least try to push the envelope there for more than once a release calendar?

Click to expand...

You're not really making a solid point with this topic, so I'll try to recap.

The post asks the question, "Why does Topps only try on the prospect products?" Am I on the right path?

Okay...so show me a single "innovation" or anything that would indicate that Topps "only" tries on prospect products. One would suffice, but implying that they only try on prospect products would imply that you would have plenty to choose from. Nothing Topps has done with 2013 Bowman really "pushes the envelope" anywhere that base Topps hasn't already done at least once. Well...minus the cards of 17 year olds and 26 year olds in the Cal League.

Have you busted a box of base Topps? Parallels, minis, foils, chrome die-cuts, jerseys, autographs, slew of inserts, award relics, silly online games, etc.

As for 2013 Bowman being "loaded"...is it really? Perhaps this impression of it being loaded is because prospect products were actually lacking what sets like base Topps have been bringing for years.

Maybe what you're really asking is why doesn't Topps put more effort into supposed "high-end" products...but then you couldn't skew it towards prospects. As for Allen and Ginter...how far can you push an envelope when the goal is the mimic a century old set? That's like asking a gun manufacturer why they aren't pushing the envelope with a their replica Civil War pistols.

[MENTION=2738]uniquebaseballcards[/MENTION] hit the nail on the head when he stated "I think you're stirring the pot here to sensationalize your podcast."

My advice? Add more ingredients before you continue to stir.

bmc398 said:

You mad bro? Sounds like you have an axe to grind somewhere....that isn't here. I don't think anybody said that they were walking away from the hobby here. The point was that innovation is basically dead in the space now....not because there's nowhere to go....but because Topps isn't pushing the market because they don't have to. People are seeing breaks of this product and are running to the LCS to get their hands on it. Why does this only happen once a year in the space for Topps?

This isn't to market or sensationalize anything for the podcast...its a real and relevant issue to the business and the hobby in general. When there is no innovation in the space, people walk away. The only thing that brings them back are great cards and must have players. THe point is that the vet stuff is so overdone and recycled that if it isn't something new and constantly moving forward it hurts the hobby because LCS' and Online retailers can't sell product that they are forced to order. If you don't see the business issues for the hobby (your hobby, I am assuming thats why you are here)then you aren't looking at this critically. Since I do a podcast on the industry...I do think about the business side of the hobby at times. Sports card shops HAVE been affected by the lack of innovation in the space. Some of that is their own fault yes, but when stores that charge fair margins on products and do provide a service can't sell the product you force them to buy....a problem IS being created.

Click to expand...

Totally incorrect.

Card shops have been dying since eBay and manufacturer innovation has zero role in that. Zero. There's more innovation now than there was 5-10 years ago yet here we are...blaming a lack of it? Come on now. I used to have to go into a card shop and order things that I can now go online and order at a fraction of the price from countless online sellers and eBay. Card shops, like Beckett price guides, are a relic of a bygone era. I don't need to sell a card at a discount to a store just to get the card I want...I can buy and sell on the same level. IE: A totally handcuffed middle man (READ: card shop).

Couple the changes in the marketplace, an inherent lack of flexibility, general lacking of business acumen with most shop owners...well...there you go. It's not the manufacturers fault that stores haven't or can't adjust.

200lbhockeyplayer said:

Totally incorrect.

Card shops have been dying since eBay and manufacturer innovation has zero role in that. Zero. There's more innovation now than there was 5-10 years ago yet here we are...blaming a lack of it? Come on now. I used to have to go into a card shop and order things that I can now go online and order at a fraction of the price from countless online sellers and eBay. Card shops, like Beckett price guides, are a relic of a bygone era. I don't need to sell a card at a discount to a store just to get the card I want...I can buy and sell on the same level. IE: A totally handcuffed middle man (READ: card shop).

Couple the changes in the marketplace, an inherent lack of flexibility, general lacking of business acumen with most shop owners...well...there you go. It's not the manufacturers fault that stores haven't or can't adjust.

Click to expand...

You are canning a 5 year old argument and trying to apply it to this. It doesn't work. Atlanta has 3 REALLY GOOD sports card stores, and a few ok ones. With a population of over 5 million in the MSA (and none of these shops ITP) those 5 million people should EASILY support those stores....and they struggle for business. All of the wannabees and hacks in the market packed up 10 years ago...the guys who are left are the antithesis of what you described above about the card shops that died long ago. I am good friends with 2 of the owners (one being the proprietor of the site) and they will support my point that its not 100% about backett prices, unrealistic wax prices and the points you raised above. A lot of it is about the lack of innovation in the space and a lack of solid products to sell and keep the doors open.

I agree to an extent that with the internet a card shop isn't a great idea or the top medium for cards....but these shops in the city do have customers because they have fought hard to earn them and separate themselves from a nameless and faceless website. The problem they are facing is that quality products to sell continue to be fewer and far between. Ginter raises 1/4th of the buzz it did in its early years and instead of selling 15+ cases the guy sells maybe 5. Its not about the margin, its not about his price....its the fact that popularity for the sets (and innovation in those sets) that they put on autopilot and churn out year after year after year just aren't capturing mindshare anymore. With the economic crunch, the industry as a whole is down....and lackluster products certainly aren't helping. Topps should do a genuine job of attempting to make a splash with EVERY release...not just for their bottom line but for the bottom line of the hobby shops and distributors that help Topps meet theirs!

Nobody is talking about quitting the hobby here. Nobody is going out and grabbing pitchforks to burn the place down. Part of it is about venting frustrations on a hobby that outside of a few products a year no longer captures MY attention much anymore. I think you are dead on with the Topps base products, that they are generally a money maker out there for most, but that is one release, and one small segment of the hobby and collector market who is into base sets. I'm not even talking about exclusively high end products either. Who is excited to go out and spend $120-$180 on a box of Tier One or Museum collection? How many hoppy shops and distributors are sitting on cases and cased of Gypsy Queen? Id say odds are good that they will continue to make these products year after year after year with little innovation until there is actual competition in the market, competition that is good for the market as a whole!

I don't often throw compliments towards topps baseball products (except base brand) but I have to throw one at this yrs bownan.

Look, we know base cards are generally dead so instead of having pack after pack of them, theres a lot of variety in this product.

In other words, as long as you're not 100% doing it soley for profit, its a fun product to open.

I have a customer who hates base cards, nearly never opens wax in the last 5 plus yrs. But he LOVES this yrs topps because its filled with variety & is fun. Never would I think he would touch it. Never!

So what I'm getting at is that I wish topps would put the same "variety" of cards found in bow & base topps into other products.

Products which won't kill collectors wallets ($5 srp range) instead of the same old retro stuff with basic stock & inserts.

bmc398 said:

You mad bro? Sounds like you have an axe to grind somewhere....that isn't here. I don't think anybody said that they were walking away from the hobby here. The point was that innovation is basically dead in the space now....not because there's nowhere to go....but because Topps isn't pushing the market because they don't have to. People are seeing breaks of this product and are running to the LCS to get their hands on it. Why does this only happen once a year in the space for Topps?

This isn't to market or sensationalize anything for the podcast...its a real and relevant issue to the business and the hobby in general. When there is no innovation in the space, people walk away. The only thing that brings them back are great cards and must have players. THe point is that the vet stuff is so overdone and recycled that if it isn't something new and constantly moving forward it hurts the hobby because LCS' and Online retailers can't sell product that they are forced to order. If you don't see the business issues for the hobby (your hobby, I am assuming thats why you are here)then you aren't looking at this critically. Since I do a podcast on the industry...I do think about the business side of the hobby at times. Sports card shops HAVE been affected by the lack of innovation in the space. Some of that is their own fault yes, but when stores that charge fair margins on products and do provide a service can't sell the product you force them to buy....a problem IS being created.

Click to expand...

That's just it, the topic you presented indicates you're the one complaining/mad/have an axe to grind somewhere... funny you didn't consider that! If anything I'm complaining about your complaining.

Didn't you say you were looking for ideas and feedback... but yet you're dismissing legitimate feedback here. Again, someone has an axe to grind and isn't looking at all sides of the issue.

Cards are fine the way they are. They're cards. Cards are simple. Sometimes (often?) the problem is not with cards, its that people expect them to fill a hole in their lives that can't be filled by cards. There's more than enough out there to keep a reasonable person satisfied. After a while the complaining becomes harmful and not helpful to the hobby.

In any event, I'm genuinely glad you posted this topic because I think its important.

I'm going to disagree with the notion that I'm using a 5 year old argument for this situation and continue it.

It comes down to successful business owners and unsuccessful business owners. When in the same field, that success is dictated often by two single categories - market and acumen.

As for two owners backing up your point (still not clear what the blanket term of "innovation" is going for), that's meaningless. Shared opinions don't simply turn them into facts. Then again, it's Atlanta…which is an absolute cesspool of a sports city. Sad, but very true.

And how are you defining "REALLY GOOD"? The impressions of the FCB shop from "the proprietor of this site" is that Magic keeps the doors open, so is this one of the "REALLY GOOD" ones? Or is it one of the "okay" ones?

We're in an era where a card shop that exists as a "card shop" in the traditional sense…it will fail. It has to because this hobby alone is simply not a sustainable market. The hobby is shrinking, and brick and mortar card shops are feeling the brunt of it. Think of our biggest rippers/collectors here…what percentage of their collection was created by walking into a card shop? 5-10% at the most?

You then bring up a mythical seller selling 15+ cases of Allen and Ginter in the early years and only 5 cases now…and what, that's an innovation problem? Come on now. When A&G came out, the retro redux market was hot…it's cooled tremendously. Even Heritage. And keep in mind…after three really successful releases of A&G, Topps added the whole "Code Breaker" chase…isn't that "innovation"?

Regardless of my rambling…any perceived lack of innovation is not hurting the card shop. Innovation and competition do nothing to a shrinking market other than spread the money thinner. It's a farce. I mean seriously, what "innovation" was driving people in 2004? 2005? Anything new at all?

And wait…what happened to all of the examples of this loaded innovation that Topps uses only for their prospect products? Wasn't that the topic at hand?

Oh and for the record…I know three store owners fairly well…two are extremely successful financially and the third sells Magic. (Not a slam on FCB…but ATL.)

As far as I've seen, one of the only and major reasons people even bust at shops any more is because of being able to shoot the bull with the owner and other customers and the easy ability to leave everything they don't want at the shop for a discount on their wax break. Other than that, there is no real reason to bust at a shop. Is that ability worth the extra money paid? To some, yes. But not everyone feels that way.

One other point: I really do not believe topps as a whole really cares all that much about the quality of their products. I mean, no they don't necessarily want them to look horrible but as far as most businesses are concerned, as long as people are willing to pay for it and the business is making money, that's all they care about. You'd think they might feel if they made a stronger effort, they might make more money. But a lot of businesses are just the opposite. Instead of the extra effort, they continually do the same thing but focus more on figuring out how to do it cheaper and cut more corners. That way, they really do end up making more money. The days of a business going the extra mile are mostly gone. About the only time you see that any more is when they are trying to get their foot in the door.

uniquebaseballcards said:

That's just it, the topic you presented indicates you're the one complaining/mad/have an axe to grind somewhere... funny you didn't consider that! If anything I'm complaining about your complaining.

Didn't you say you were looking for ideas and feedback... but yet you're dismissing legitimate feedback here. Again, someone has an axe to grind and isn't looking at all sides of the issue.

Cards are fine the way they are. They're cards. Cards are simple. Sometimes (often?) the problem is not with cards, its that people expect them to fill a hole in their lives that can't be filled by cards. There's more than enough out there to keep a reasonable person satisfied. After a while the complaining becomes harmful and not helpful to the hobby.

In any event, I'm genuinely glad you posted this topic because I think its important.

Click to expand...

There's no axe to grind...I like Topps products for the most part. They are good at the things they do well and try not to venture out at that. I used to be a 20K a year guy into the hobby. Now im a 2K a year guy into the hobby. Its not because I hate Topps. Its not because I hate myself....its because there is nothing out there besides the occasional bowman release, football box or my yearly case of draft really gets my attention anymore.

You're turning this into a (insert collector here) has no life so they XXXXX about topps just to XXXXX. Thats about as far from the truth as it can be. I'm XXXXXing because the hobby I love really isn't the hobby it was 4-5 years ago and part of that is because of the lack of competition in the baseball market. Thats all. I'm not some deep dark depressed guy waiting for Topps to brighten up my life with an innovative idea. I'm a guy on a card site who talks to shop owners who see the same issue in the hobby that he does.

Your posts had no points to them. You basically tried to turn it on me, project images that I am some depressed guy in my mothers basement who is just XXXXXing to XXXXX. If you see it that way, fine...but the thread was started for you to have a real opinion or criticism of whats going on....not of me. You can say your posts weren't personal but its clear they were. I get it, you are tired of people XXXXXing about Topps. You think they are doing a find job, but some in the industry don't. Its opinion vs. opion and I can respect that. What I don't respect are the personal digs at me...