Hall of Fame numbers - whats required?

Krom said:

For such a power hitter he ony hit 381 Hrs.

.295 BA is not too bad but he only hit 1700 hits.

I am in no way trying to trash talk Belle in the least but but argue (in a HOF #s thread) that Belle would have needed to play longer to be a Hofer.

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Well he had an injury shortened career, but you know that right?

Take a look at his career averages? Obviously his totals won't be much but he had the shortened career lol


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Krom said:

For such a power hitter he ony hit 381 Hrs.

.295 BA is not too bad but he only hit 1700 hits.

I am in no way trying to trash talk Belle in the least but but argue (in a HOF #s thread) that Belle would have needed to play longer to be a Hofer.

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Exactly. No way does Belle get in.

MansGame said:

Well he had an injury shortened career, but you know that right?

Take a look at his career averages? Obviously his totals won't be much but he had the shortened career lol


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Sure he had great numbers for a shortened career but nobody gets in on projections if they played longer. Bottom line he didn't and won't get in because he doesn't have the numbers.

I do not think there are any automatic ins when it comes to numbers. 300 wins will never be seen again. 500 hr or 3000 hits while both significant milestones do not necessarily equate to greatness. Just because a guy hangs on and plays above average ball into his 40s and piles up hits doesn't mean he is HOF worthy.

HOF in my eyes should be reserved for the most dominate players of an era.

maxe0213 said:

Exactly. No way does Belle get in.

Sure he had great numbers for a shortened career but nobody gets in on projections if they played longer. Bottom line he didn't and won't get in because he doesn't have the numbers.

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I think Koufax got in on a shortened career

cards01fan said:

I think Koufax got in on a shortened career

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Using Koufax to back up Belle getting into the hall of fame. Thats new.

Koufax had lights out stats. Koufax had 5 of the most insane numbers for a pitcher IN A ROW statwise. Belle had good to great stats for however many years but in the end he didn't have record breaking stats and not good enough stats to warrant a break because of a shortened career.

cards01fan said:

I think Koufax got in on a shortened career

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Koufax led the league in era 5 times. Belle only led in hrs once.

matfanofold said:

I do not think nor believe any given numbers are a requirement at all, nor should they be. The Hall of Fame has always, since its inception, been a place for the most revered and popular players of any given generation. The common modern mistake is thinking the great numbers made the great men when it was the other way around, great men made the great numbers. It just so happens that the same things that are conducive for creating a revered and popular player are usually somewhat parallel with significant statistical statures, but obviously not always. The only criteria I use when judging a players HOF worth is if he was among the few who captured a large part of any given generation with regards to reverence and popularity.

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Or more like most of the time not(to the bolded above). There are plenty of popular players with national, not just local, prestige that will never make the HOF. It is about numbers.
Says guys like:

Don Mattingly
Darryl Strawberry
Lenny Dykstra
Doc Gooden
Keith Hernandez
Mike Scott
Nomar Garciaparra
Mark Grace
Will Clark
Fernando Valenzuela
Bo Jackson
Dieon Sanders
David Justice(though roids would hurt his chances anyways)
Fred McGriff
Jim Abbot


Do you want me to keep naming names?

predatorkj said:

Or more like most of the time not(to the bolded above). There are plenty of popular players with national, not just local, prestige that will never make the HOF. It is about numbers.
Says guys like:

Don Mattingly
Darryl Strawberry
Lenny Dykstra
Doc Gooden
Keith Hernandez
Mike Scott
Nomar Garciaparra
Mark Grace
Will Clark
Fernando Valenzuela
Bo Jackson
Dieon Sanders
David Justice(though roids would hurt his chances anyways)
Fred McGriff
Jim Abbot


Do you want me to keep naming names?

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I mean you can do the same on both sides of the spectrum. Ruth, Dimaggio, Larkin, Henderson, Ripken Jr, Boggs, Eckersley, Carter, Puckett. Plenty of players.

You make it based on a combination of stats AND recognition. Normally great stats come with recognition as well.

Anyone can cherry pick names to back up their argument.

I'm not trying to make this a thread about Albert Belle and the HOF but here are a couple quick points to the comments posted at me already...

(1) The HOF made the rule that you need to play a minimum of 10 years... It's impossible to reach milestones in just 10 years, so if that's required for the Hall, then they should change the minimum number of years to be eligible. Otherwise, you should be able to look at a player who only played 10-12 years and still qualify them as a HOFer.

(2) Jim Rice played 4 more official season than Albert Belle, yet has similar numbers for career totals. How do you explain that? And before you start pounding the 1 MVP for Rice table, Belle should of won 1 MVP as well, so that's a wash. Plus not every MVP is in the HOF - not a milestone IMO. Also, Rice has NO milestones that I see... so what the hell did he do to make it to the Hall?

(3) Belle was one of the most feared hitters in the '90s, period. His season averages are just crazy good.

As for the OP, obviously milestones get you a pretty much fast track into the HOF but I don't see why you would NEED milestones to get in... if that is the case, then they should change some of the rules for what you need to get in and how it's done.

MansGame said:

Well he had an injury shortened career, but you know that right?

Take a look at his career averages? Obviously his totals won't be much but he had the shortened career lol



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Of course i know that, its a good part of why his totals are so low. Still doesn't make him a hofer.
Rice had the extra home run so... jk but he did have over 700+ more hits, more than 200+ rbis, 200+ runs, and led the league in hr three times to Belle's one.

Belle had a great career but falls short of being a hofer.

Well, clearly milestones dont count anymore, since some numbers are easier to hit now, and some are more difficult, depending on the position. But its funny to hear conversations about whether a player should or shouldnt be in and numbers get thrown around like they mean something, when it clearly seems to not mean a darn thing.

So if they dont, then what does it take? Popularity? Brown nosing the committee? Is it just a favorites game then?

Numbers clearly mean something. They just need to be viewed in the proper context in most instances.

Krom said:

Of course i know that, its a good part of why his totals are so low. Still doesn't make him a hofer.
Rice had the extra home run so... jk but he did have over 700+ more hits, more than 200+ rbis, 200+ runs, and led the league in hr three times to Belle's one.

Belle had a great career but falls short of being a hofer.

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Anyone arguing against Belle should also be against Kirby. He also had 12 seasons where he was great and had his career cut short, but instead of Belle's crazy power numbers (40 HR/yr average), he had the BA/hits thing. And honestly, a guy hitting 40 HR per year with "only" a .295 average? And only 101 K/yr? That's easy HOF.

In my opinion and apparently some others, give me PEAK over CAREER for HOF. Dale Murphy should also be in for the same reasons. And this isn't to say career numbers shouldn't count. You don't play 20 years unless you're damn good at baseball you know.

Krom said:

Of course i know that, its a good part of why his totals are so low. Still doesn't make him a hofer.
Rice had the extra home run so... jk but he did have over 700+ more hits, more than 200+ rbis, 200+ runs, and led the league in hr three times to Belle's one.

Belle had a great career but falls short of being a hofer.

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LOL! Rice played 4 more full seasons! It's SAD he only has that many more for each category haha

D-Lite said:

Anyone arguing against Belle should also be against Kirby. He also had 12 seasons where he was great and had his career cut short, but instead of Belle's crazy power numbers (40 HR/yr average), he had the BA/hits thing. And honestly, a guy hitting 40 HR per year with "only" a .295 average? And only 101 K/yr? That's easy HOF.

In my opinion and apparently some others, give me PEAK over CAREER for HOF. Dale Murphy should also be in for the same reasons. And this isn't to say career numbers shouldn't count. You don't play 20 years unless you're damn good at baseball you know.

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Great post.

maxe0213 said:

I mean you can do the same on both sides of the spectrum. Ruth, Dimaggio, Larkin, Henderson, Ripken Jr, Boggs, Eckersley, Carter, Puckett. Plenty of players.

You make it based on a combination of stats AND recognition. Normally great stats come with recognition as well.

Anyone can cherry pick names to back up their argument.

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I wasn't really trying to stir any particular pot. All I'm saying is that short of Ozzie Smith and Sandy Koufax, it really does seem to be about numbers more than anything else. And we have heard all the reasons why the two above are in.

Unfortunately you can't go with numbers anymore PEDs kind of hold all the cards. There was a time when 300/500/3,000 was a ticket. Clemens has 354 wins and is nowhere near election. Heck Bonds is the all time home run leader same there. Those are obvious though. Also the opinion that one has to kiss up to the media to gain election....how about Eddie Murray? He wasn't exactly a media darling but his numbers don't lie 500HR and 3000 Hits. Who else holds the same distinction? Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Rafael Palmeiro. Palmeiro isn't even going to survive 15 years on the ballot imo. It's a crapshoot right now for election. I see Maddux and Glavine getting in this year. Maybe Biggio.

My random thoughts. We cannot say there will never be another 300 game winner. CC Sabathia certainly could hang around 6-8 years and pull this off. 3000 hits and 300W's have proven to be automatic stats that get you in assuming player not embroiled in PED or other legal issues (Clemens, Palmiero and Rose are 3 who are in limbo now). Glavine, Maddux and Randy J will all make it as will Biggio eventually (given his high % in year 1) and of course Jeter. No other stats have held over the generations. Use to say 1500 RBIs or even 400 HRS would do it but not anymore- lots of players exceeding these milestones nowadays. 3000 strikeouts (for a pitcher ) is close-to-automatic too as the only members of this club who are not in are Johnson, Schilling and Smoltz, all of whom I think will eventually be elected.