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1993 Finest Refractor Hoards

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smapdi

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2008
4,397
221
I came across these auctions that are actually kind of amazing.

Lot of 710 #1-50

Lot of 510 #51-100

Lot of 800 #101-150

Lot of 1000 #151-199

It's a pity that in typical PWCC style they don't list exact details about the composition of these lots, but just based on the pictures there's some serious compulsion happening. And it's tempting to imagine the breakup value. For instance, with Edgar Martinez this><close to HOF election and the 93 Finest Refractor being one of his earlist really nice cards, seeing 10 of them in one listing is serious potential, although that one is already up to $8200. Not to mention 34 Bob Welches. And apparently no Griffeys, Ripkens, Ryans, or Thomases included, but if you're in the market for this you already have those, I'd guess.
 

bigunitcards

Member
Sep 8, 2013
654
0
OKC, OK
3,020 refractors, 1:15 packs, 18 packs/box, 12 packs per box = 209 cases worth of refractors. BBCP states 4,000 cases produced. Or 241 copies of 199 subjects. = 5-6% of all refractors for sale in this auction.
 

mhcook

Member
Feb 22, 2011
165
1
That is mind blowing. I have a hard time believing that one person collected all of these. It is much easier to believe that someone at Topps has these and was too lazy to sell anything other than the biggest starts. If also makes me question the total number produced.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Freedom Card Board mobile app
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
6,188
4,100
After 25 years, it could be believable that someone squirreled away all those slowly over time. It is also believable that someone backdoored a bunch of stuff too. You never know with the stuff anymore. Card stories seem to get sleazier and sleazier as the years go by.
 

brian26

Member
Nov 12, 2010
679
10
I have never believed that only 241 copies exist of each of these refractors. It seems like there are hundreds more just based on ebay listings on a monthly basis.
 

smapdi

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2008
4,397
221
I've heard of people hoarding one card (Andre Dawson supposedly hoarded...Andre Dawson). But 3000 cards with as many as 3 dozen copies of one card is indeed a labor of love. I don't think it's proof of there being more than 241 copies, it's just what happens when people devote decades to collecting something, plus the exposure the web allows.
 

gracecollector

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2008
6,559
215
Lake in the Hills, IL
I have never believed that only 241 copies exist of each of these refractors. It seems like there are hundreds more just based on ebay listings on a monthly basis.

I've long believed this too. Too many show up for the 241 copies theory. Talked to several 90's insert collectors that feel the same way. Either some got back doored in addition to the ones that were packed out, or the production numbers are off. Of the rare 90's inserts everyone chases, I feel these are the most overvalued.
 

mouschi

Featured Contributor, Bridging the Gap, Senior Mem
May 18, 2012
3,105
170
I really want to believe there are just 241, but can see how it could be more than this as well. Between PSA and BGS, there are nearly 300 Frank Thomas refractors that have been graded. Certainly, this is skewed due to re-subbing, plus, I think '93 finest is HIGHLY susceptible to this practice, but to think that the number represents the potential for anywhere near 100% of all copies having been graded is a bit crazy.

I will follow up by saying this: I do not think they are necessarily overvalued at all - even if the print run is double. Here's why:

- It is the first baseball refractor set ... and quite possibly the most beautiful.
- It is a true pre-strike, limited parallel in the junk-era. Consider the Donruss Elite cards. Many of those sell quite well in spite of their monsterous 10,000 print run.
- The site is notorious for off-centering and refractor lines. It is one thing to find your guy. It is quite another to find a well-centered, refractor line-free example.
 

Letch77

Well-known member
Jan 28, 2018
1,608
353
Midwest
Between PSA and BGS, there are nearly 300 Frank Thomas refractors that have been graded. Certainly, this is skewed due to re-subbing, plus, I think '93 finest is HIGHLY susceptible to this practice, but to think that the number represents the potential for anywhere near 100% of all copies having been graded is a bit crazy.

- The site is notorious for off-centering and refractor lines. It is one thing to find your guy. It is quite another to find a well-centered, refractor line-free example.

If you're starting a poll, mine has never been graded (although I'm considering submitting it because it's centered better than most PSA 9s I've seen for sale).
 

mouschi

Featured Contributor, Bridging the Gap, Senior Mem
May 18, 2012
3,105
170
If you're starting a poll, mine has never been graded (although I'm considering submitting it because it's centered better than most PSA 9s I've seen for sale).

If I had the ability to poll the entire collecting community, there are so, so, SO many I'd like to start. There are just so many different flavors of collectors. On this site, if you were to ask what the best '90s insert/parallel was, folks would say the 97 finest embossed, 98 crusade, 96 mirror gold, etc. On blowout, I conducted a poll already and '93 finest refractors blew the doors off of all the others. Crazy!
 

banjar

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2015
2,540
883
Lafayette, Colorado
Absolutely. I have been thinking this too, but with no evidence other than the same thing you mentioned, the endless number of ebay listings. Other cards with vastly higher print runs don't show up nearly as often.

Every damn one seems to sell at a pretty decent price though. So whatever the number they are a cornerstone card. I remember when they came out and they blew me away. Especially the all stars with that beautiful green color, and that shiny, almost liquid finish.

I have never believed that only 241 copies exist of each of these refractors. It seems like there are hundreds more just based on ebay listings on a monthly basis.
 

Letch77

Well-known member
Jan 28, 2018
1,608
353
Midwest
I remember when they came out and they blew me away. Especially the all stars with that beautiful green color, and that shiny, almost liquid finish.

Indeed...I was so enamored with the All-Star cards - they STILL look better than most of the junk companies put out today. Finest had such a clean, crisp look to it. I remember thinking that the pack design seemed rather plain for being so expensive, but when I opened my first pack and saw the All-Star card sandwiched in between the other cards, I was blown away.
 

banjar

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2015
2,540
883
Lafayette, Colorado
Oh yeah. Languid mirror pools of shiny emerald refractor luminescent rainbowiness...

homer.jpg


Indeed...I was so enamored with the All-Star cards - they STILL look better than most of the junk companies put out today. Finest had such a clean, crisp look to it. I remember thinking that the pack design seemed rather plain for being so expensive, but when I opened my first pack and saw the All-Star card sandwiched in between the other cards, I was blown away.
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
6,188
4,100
I don't recall the details, but someone eventually will chime in I am sure...I believe that the 241 amount was calculated from a supposed stated number of cases being offered. The case number was divided by the box per case, then pack per box, set size and then the wrapper odds for the refractors to get an idea of the print run.

It begs another look as you consider the number of "limited" serial numbered items and their value as the production numbers grew smaller. Early 90s Donruss Elites #'d to 5000 & 10000 copies still outpace some insert sets numbered to 25 or 50 copies. Why? Are they that popular or are they just still that hard to find? I think a lot of it is that hype and legend. People continue to want them and will pay much more than they should be worth relative to newer sets with much fewer copies and pretty much anyone holding one for sale will play off that nostalgia to own what was once considered a holy grail of inserts.

Maybe what is keeping those numbers even higher in some cases, like the Elites, is that there may still be a decent quantity of them still sealed up in packs across bulk collections of those massively produced Donruss offerings.
 

linuxabuser

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2011
2,364
50
Maybe this guy Phil Gold? Scroll down on page to see his text (3,000+). I remember seeing a spreadsheet from some 93 finest ref super collector years ago that had all of this in there and tracked prices paid. Was crazy comprehensive.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=177686


Sent from my iPhone using Freedom Card Board mobile app

That site is long dead. However, there's a snapshot on the Wayback Machine.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130404103835/http://www.philg.comxa.com
 
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