1956 Mickey Mantle BVG 6, Opinions Gentlemen?

[Randy Shields]

So I've been speaking with someone who has this card amongst some other sports memorabilia and we had a conversation about it. It's a grey back and this gentleman is asking $900 firm. Now we haven't met and I haven't seen the card yet but he does have the following picture below and we're going to talk more about it this evening as well as a good time to hook up.
He doesn't live that far away from me and I'm going to check out some of the other memorabilia that he has along with this card.
It seems like a decent deal to me and depending on what else he has, which he said he could make me even better deals on, we might just be able to do some kind of a larger package.
I've priced some 5's and some 5.5's but there have been no 6's and I don't have worthpoint. I'm fully aware that BVG does not command the same prices as SGC and certainly PSA as they definitely over grade but the last two 5.5's have went for $938 and $1,150.

It is sealed inside the tamper-proof Beckett foil so I know it's legit but I just wanted to get your guys's thoughts on the price. It's not the greatest picture in the world but it's good enough to see I think to make a judgement call as far as its legitimacy. And I'm aware that the Beckett foil does cover up one end of the card.
I did ask him for a picture of the back of the card which he intends to send me later hopefully but in our conversation he seemed like a pretty decent guy.

Anywhoo, I would appreciate anyone's thoughts here...[emoji106] [emoji107] ?



Sent from my SM-G960U using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[linuxabuser]

I would want a lot better picture. Need to see those 2 hidden corners and the back. If I were buying it, I'd plan to sub it to PSA. Even at a PSA 5, a gray back went for $1050. If it looks good in-hand, I'd pull the trigger.

 

[Randy Shields]

I would want a lot better picture. Need to see those 2 hidden corners and the back. If I were buying it, I'd plan to sub it to PSA. Even at a PSA 5, a gray back went for $1050. If it looks good in-hand, I'd pull the trigger.

Yes I agree on both counts. The picture certainly needs to be better but if the seal hasn't been tampered with, which it doesn't look like it, and I meet up with him and can check the other corners out and if they look pretty good then I'm thinking $900 isn't bad. I'd definitely want to sub it and I was thinking most likely PSA, but SGC will be at a show close to me at the end of March. I know PSA commands the highest price and are the most stringent but if it could crossover to an SGC 6 the last 2 have sold for $1,499 and $1,577. The last couple of PSA 6's, $1,450 and $1,626. So I'm thinking of seeing what services they offer. I have no idea if they do any type of reviews, but I might be able to try and pick their brains to see what they say and perhaps go with them while they're on-site.


All of this of course is irrelevant until I actually see the card and decide to make a deal on it. But I respect those on here that know much more about vintage than I do and I really appreciate your thoughts and comments!

 

[mrmopar]

I would have to see it in person, but it just looks odd. The borders are very white, almost reprint like. I can't tell anything about the size of the holder either, but it looks like the card is in a sleeve inside the holder. It could be a soft sleeve for vintage cards, but it seems to me that those were more fitting usually. It's too easy to discount online images and assume everything is fake, but this would have me looking much closer at it in hand.

 

[Randy Shields]

I would have to see it in person, but it just looks odd. The borders are very white, almost reprint like. I can't tell anything about the size of the holder either, but it looks like the card is in a sleeve inside the holder. It could be a soft sleeve for vintage cards, but it seems to me that those were more fitting usually. It's too easy to discount online images and assume everything is fake, but this would have me looking much closer at it in hand.

I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. It is a pretty bright white and it is pretty well centered. The other thing worth noting is BVG is much more lenient it appears with their vintage card grading. So to have something that looks pretty white and centered only for BVG to give it a 6 grade seems a little odd too. Again he lives pretty close and I can go have a look at it. I certainly wouldn't purchase it unless I were to be 100% positive that it's legit.
I'm going to do a card lookup and call Beckett and give them the number of the raw card review and see what they say.

Thanks for your comments and your concerns, I appreciate it!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[Randy Shields]

If anyone else has some thoughts feel free to respond. I'm a modern guy, not a vintage expert by far, but if it ends up being a good deal and there's room to make a little profit on it then I'm always open to that.
I'm going to speak to him here shortly to see what kind of memorabilia items he has as well.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[dano7]

Looks a little too clean to me, so be on the cautious side. Hope it's genuine, though!!!

 

[Randy Shields]

Looks a little too clean to me, so be on the cautious side. Hope it's genuine, though!!!

It does Danny and I will definitely err on the side of caution here, trust me. I just had a long conversation with him and we may try and meet up later this week or this weekend.
What I'm curious about though, and Idk if anyone would have an answer to this, but I've done the raw card review many, many times. "IF" that sealed has been tampered with you can see it in a heartbeat. I've opened some that I didn't like the grades on and it is impossible to open it without it tearing apart. Now I've always just cut the end and popped my cards out but I did try and tear that foil off once and it just breaks apart. So again I just don't think it's possible to tamper with those seals at all without it being completely obvious, but with everything else nefarious going on in our hobby I guess it wouldn't totally shock me if someone has figured out a way around them.

 

[swish54_99]

I would have to see it in person, but it just looks odd. The borders are very white, almost reprint like. I can't tell anything about the size of the holder either, but it looks like the card is in a sleeve inside the holder. It could be a soft sleeve for vintage cards, but it seems to me that those were more fitting usually. It's too easy to discount online images and assume everything is fake, but this would have me looking much closer at it in hand.

Those were some of my thoughts as well. The borders look awfully white and the centering is near perfect and the two corners you can see look (at least from the blurry picture) very sharp...so why only a 6 grade? Are the other two corners that bad? Just to play a little more devils advocate here....IF the card is real and really does look that nice in person, what is keeping it from being in a PSA slab or at minimum BVG/SCG?...what is the reasoning by just doing a raw review....did it come back trimmed/altered from one of the main companies? Maybe the seller isn't the one who went that route, and they are just the one that has it now.

I wouldn't say there are red flags, per-say, but maybe some yellow ones. One thing you could do is take another 1956 card you might have, preferably a graded one, so you can hold it up to this one and see how closely it measures up in size.

To OP: sounds like you're covering yourself by going into it with an open mind, which is smart.

 

[raddison1972]

If you reach out to Beckett, ask them when they used raw grade stickers where you write the grade number on it. I see a mix on Ebay of ones like this and others with printed grades on them. Plus there are gold ones, silver ones and what appears to be variations on designs. The fact there are so many different versions of these Beckett raw grade stickers out there makes my caution flag go up. But that's my pessimistic approach.

Is the guy a dealer or a collector? I'd vet the actual guy too.

Let us know what you find out and good luck. Just keep your BS radar on at all times!

 

[Randy Shields]

I appreciate the feedback gentleman. This guy is actually a pawn shop dealer and he got this card and some other sports memorabilia in a recent pick up. He just wants to move it and has no interest in sending it in to get it graded. -Caution #1.
I did call Beckett last night and even though there are numbers stamped on Raw Card review foil stickers there is no database for those numbers. I suggested this would be a nice tool for collectors to have as many have been bought and sold on the internet for years now and continue to be. I was told it was because they could not guarantee the grade that was put on the card. I understand this because when you do the raw card review it's understood both upfront and on-site that you may not get that exact grade as reviewed. I've never received a different grade once I've turned around and submitted them to be slabbed, but I've always just done this right on the spot if the review was good.
Having said that however I can see where that would be an issue and why they can't guarantee the slabbed version to be the exact same grade as the rcr because a lot of the cards leave there without being immediately resubmitted for slabbing and that could lead to obvious issues as these cards are in semi-rigid holders and they could take on moisture, get bent, be exposed to sunlight and so on which could affect the final grade when the resubmission is finally done. -Caution #2.
So while I agree completely with that analysis it would still be helpful to have a database to know simply what card is supposed to match up with the number on the raw card review. For example, having a RCR review database you would simply go in, punch in #263520 and at least see if it comes back a 1956 Mickey Mantle. If it does you should be halfway home. However the card needs to be checked out carefully inside of the semi rigid case and obviously check to see if the tamper-proof foil has not been altered or attempted to be altered in any way.

Lastly as far as the grades on the RCR stickers, going back a ways the grade was always put on the foil as it is on this card in the smaller white square in the upper right corner. So this is not uncommon at all. Again being out of the hobby for a while they have probably changed this and just stamp it now, but when I did all of my reviews back in the day they always had the white box with the grade written on it. And unfortunately I do not have another 1956 Topps card to compare it to so although that's a very smart idea, I won't have that option.
We still haven't figured out a day or time when we're going to meet up but he has no problem with me coming to his house and again he seems like a decent guy but I am certainly not going to pull the trigger on anything I have any suspicions about concerning this card.

Thanks for all the great feedback guys I really do appreciate it!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[Randy Shields]

So this guy just sent me the following pictures as I had asked him for some better ones. I'd forgotten that when bgs wraps the foil around the open end of the holder you can't see the end of the card at all.
More thoughts?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[finestkind]

I agree with the other's here. The borders are too white. It's too sharp looking of a card. The big thing that stands out to me is, the Beckett label is all smudged or like something has been done to the label. I looked at a few cards on Ebay under Becketts Raw Card Review. None of the labels look like that. Most everyone knows that a nice vintage card like that would bring more money in a PSA slab. So even a pawn shop knows he would make $300 or so more on it PSA graded. I would be Skeptical of pawn shop having sports cards and sports memorabilia. That's just me. Hopefully you'll make out good on it.

 

[linuxabuser]

I don't think it's a fake at all, but what's above the hat? Is that a pinhole?

 

[mrmopar]

One thing for sure, the guy can't take a picture to save his life. Better lighting and a closer photo would be much more useful. If you are trying to sell something for $900, put some effort into it!

 

[mrmopar]

Here is my Mantle. I put very little effort into taking a photo. Could have done better but it is night time now so I have to do it inside and there is glare.

I chose to go with a nice presentable card, but accepted light creasing to get an affordable price. If I take the shot straight on, you don't even see the creasing.

 

[Randy Shields]

You're right he can't take a good picture at all but I guess I'm fortunate that I at least got some better pictures than the only other one he had.
Actually that RCR label with the grade on it looks exactly like the ones I've had in the past. I know they put gold labels on for 9.5's and anything less it's silver. And you really can't tear them off without totally messing them up. It actually looks good to me know that the pics are a bit better.
Good eye on that pinhole because that's exactly what it appears to be. You can see it in the front top white border and in the second photo of the back you can see it as well between the 121 HR total and the 445 RBI total. That's obviously what kept the grade down even with it being Beckett. I'm guessing that might have affected it by at least a grade if not two? That would be hard for me to say.
So given that and if it is in fact legit as it may appear to be, do you guys think that that's still a pretty decent price or do you think a lot of vintage collectors wouldn't like the pinhole regardless of the grade?
I'm also wondering about the SGC crossover I was thinking of doing at the end of this month if it appeared to be legit and I made the purchase, or possibly sending it to PSA, but I'm wondering if they would hit it harder with that pinhole than what Beckett did. I'd say there's a good chance that both of them may very well knock it down another grade and if they do I just don't know if it would be worth it at that point. That covered end makes it difficult also to get a decent look in order to make a decision on the crossover.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[swish54_99]

If it's a pinhole, it would be a PSA 1 or rarely a 2. I can't confirm, but I would assume the same with the other big TPG companies as well.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1005233/pin-holes

 

[Randy Shields]

If it's a pinhole, it would be a PSA 1 or rarely a 2. I can't confirm, but I would assume the same with the other big TPG companies as well.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1005233/pin-holes

Thanks a lot for the link. Man that 1954 Ted Williams looks really good for a PSA 1 so it seems pretty obvious that PSA at least really knocks the grade down if a card has a pinhole.
As I stated earlier I think it's pretty obvious that BVG is really generous with their grades. Now I believe I'd be rethinking my thoughts on a crossover. Having said that though even if I were to purchase the card and send it into Beckett I'm not sure if a vintage collector or even in particular a Mantle collector would pay a BVG 6 price with that pinhole. That to me really is a huge unknown.
This is kind of a slap in the face though to Beckett I think and their vintage grading credibility. The obvious way to go with vintage is PSA and SGC but I think it's a good guess that neither one of them would grade this card very high even if it looked really nice aside from the fact it has this pinhole.
This link really says a lot because again with that '54 Williams certainly looks like a PSA 4 or perhaps a 5 in my limited vintage opinion if it weren't for that. And the hole in that card to me doesn't seem to be as prevalent as far as eye appeal as the one in the Mantle with it being so noticeable and obvious in the white border.

I certainly welcome more thoughts and comments here but I'm starting to lean towards not meeting up with this guy or making the purchase at this point...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Freedom Card Board mobile app